The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

Statement by the Llywydd

Welcome to this Plenary session. Before we begin, I want to set out a few points. This meeting will be held in a hybrid format, with some Members in the Senedd Chamber and others joining by video-conference. All Members participating in proceedings in the Senedd, wherever they may be, will be treated equally. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting and those are noted on your agenda. I would also remind Members that Standing Orders relating to order in Plenary meetings apply to this meeting and apply equally to Members in the Chamber as to those joining virtually.

1. Questions to the Minister for Finance and Local Government

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Finance and Local Government, and the first question is from Samuel Kurtz.

Fixed-penalty Notices

Samuel Kurtz MS: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on the use of fixed-penalty notices by local authorities? OQ56836

Rebecca Evans AC: It is for each authority to determine its policy and approach to the use of fixed-penalty notices locally. Fixed-penalty notices are a key tool in tackling a number of offences and we support their use as a response to low-level environmental and other crimes. In 2019-20, local authorities issued 11,091 FPNs in relation to local environmental protection issues.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Thank you, Minister. There are a number of FPNs issued by local authorities that do not see any obligation for the money raised from fines being invested in mitigating the recurrence of such offence. Fly-tipping is an offence that has seen a recent increase across Wales and has blighted many parts of my constituency of Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire. Another issue is FPNs issued to those walking dogs on restricted beaches along the Pembrokeshire and Carmarthenshire coastal path. Can I urge the Welsh Government to look at how local authorities ring-fence the money raised by FPNs to ensure that the money is spent addressing and improving specific facilities to help change behaviour rather than being lost in the general council spending pot?

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you for the question. The Member is absolutely right that there are some FPNs that don't have the requirement to reinvest the money in terms of the cost of the service. But traffic and parking offences sit outside that, of course, being exceptions to that rule.
We did issue guidance to environmental health officers on the use of FPNs in January 2020, and that does advise then that the FPNs are used as part of a wider approach, which should include prevention and collaboration and that authorities have to make their enforcement strategies publicly available. And they should include all of the offences in the scheme and how much the authority will fine people for each offence, details of any early payment discounts, how the FPNs are used, how the authority deals with juvenile offenders, what the authority will do if offenders don't pay and how to appeal if the option is available. But it also requires that it's publicly available in those documents how the money for the FPNs will be spent and how the records are kept. But I'll certainly have a discussion with the representatives in the WLGA to alert them to the concerns that you've raised this afternoon and explore if there's more that we can be doing in terms of the application of that guidance.

Question 2, Jane Dodds.

Health and Social Services

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you very much. It's nice to be back and to see everybody.
2. Will the Minister make a statement on budget allocations to the health and social services portfolio in relation to the provision of children's services? OQ56819

Rebecca Evans AC: Support for the provision of children’s services is a priority in our budget preparations. Most recently, the 2021-22 supplementary budget allocated £98.7 million to the health and social services portfolio to support children.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you very much, Minister.

Jane Dodds AS: I know that the welfare and life chances of our children and young people, especially those in care, is a shared priority for Ministers and me. In the last decade, we have seen an increase in the number of children coming into the care of local authorities, and I know that support workers and others work incredibly hard to give children and young people in care the best start in life. This growth, however, has resulted in significant financial pressures on local authorities, with expenditure on children and families being, on average, the second largest area of spend for councils in Wales. Many local authorities are facing challenges with recruitment and the growing cost of residential care. So, may I ask the Minister, with the expectation that, sadly, more children and families will require support from their local councils in the coming year, what priority will this area of spend have in the forthcoming budget? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you very much for raising this important issue, and it was an issue that was actually raised with me on my grand summer tour of local authorities and it's certainly something that is of significant concern to some of those authorities. And our programme for government does commit us to ensuring that we fund regional residential services to bring children with complex needs back home from care outside of Wales. I think that will be important both in terms of improving the care available to those children and in terms of the situation for local authorities and their finances.
Spending on children and family services in Wales has increased significantly, by 31.5 per cent from 2015-16 to 2019-20. It's still the case, though, that a large amount of that is spent on children's care home placements. Our focus really has to be on ensuring that children are able to stay with their families, preventing family break-up by funding advocacy services for parents whose children are at risk of coming into care, providing additional specialist support for children with complex needs who might be on the edge of care, and also exploring the radical reform of current services for children who are looked after and care leavers. Those are absolutely critical parts of our programme for government and parts of the discussion I'm having with colleagues as we start to set our budget for the next financial year and the years beyond that.

Joel James MS: The Minister may remember my remarks prior to recess regarding the Summer of Fun programme, where my question was whether or not funding for this programme was sufficient given the high rates of child obesity in Wales. During the summer recess, I was able to visit an organisation that provided activities for the Summer of Fun in South Wales Central, and I was extremely impressed at the range of activities that they offered. Not only did they provide physical activities, but activities that focused on team building, developing confidence and self-reliance as well.
However, it was during my visit that I was made aware of a major issue, which I would ask the Minister to take on board for the future. Ultimately, those activity providers who had applied for funding to provide the Summer of Fun only received notification of the success of their bids four days before they were due to start. This made the process of filling spaces for activities quite chaotic, and gave some families too little time to organise themselves. This resulted in spaces being allocated but children not being able to make the activity. As such, this meant that the course was full even though, ultimately, there were spaces available on the day, which families could have taken advantage of had they known. I therefore ask if the Minister could carefully consider the timing of the funding for 2022, so that activity providers and families can maximise the opportunities available to them. Thank you.

Rebecca Evans AC: I thank the Member for those points, and I do think that they are well made in terms of the importance of giving local authorities adequate notice of funding that will be available to support various programmes. I share his enthusiasm, though, for what he saw in terms of the activities that took place this year in terms of the Summer of Fun. I think local authorities did a great job, alongside other partners, pulling together some fantastic schemes to ensure that children and young people had an opportunity to enjoy themselves, to meet other people, to get outdoors and do things that they hadn't been able to do for a long time.
Alongside that, of course, we have our school holiday enrichment programme, which has been tremendously successful, and some local authorities also undertake different schemes that seek to address holiday hunger and support families to undertake activities during parts of the year when the children aren't at school. Obviously, I'll take on board that important comment about the timing of funding and I will be considering how we can support these kinds of projects as we move forward.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Sam Rowlands.

Sam Rowlands MS: Diolch, Llywydd, and good afternoon, Minister. How would you describe the current relationship that councils have with Natural Resources Wales?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, I think that the current relationship that councils have with Natural Resources Wales is very useful because they both have shared concerns in terms of ensuring that our environment and our approach to climate change is very much at the heart of both agendas—there are shared agendas there. But if my colleague has any particular concerns, I'd be happy to take them up with NRW or the Welsh Local Government Association as appropriate.

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you very much for your response, Minister. As you'll be aware, at the start of July, the leaders of Wales's 22 local authorities called on Welsh Government to review the powers and remit of the public body responsible for looking after the environment here in Wales—Natural Resources Wales. And as you'll be aware, my colleague Janet Finch-Saunders raised this issue with the Minister for Climate Change in July as well, who welcomed the feedback from the WLGAand stated that she'd be having continued discussion with the WLGA and Natural Resources Wales through you as the local government Minister. So, I hope those discussions are going well. But do you think councils have the ability to deliver some of the responsibilities that currently sit with Natural Resources Wales?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, we've always said that we will look to devolve powers to the correct level of governance, and there are certainly areas where we could look to devolve further powers from Welsh Government to local authorities. But, again, if this is a particular area where there are ideas that come from the WLGA, in partnership with Natural Resources Wales, then I'd be interested in hearing those shared ideas and concerns.

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you for that as well, Minister. As you know, one of the issues that councils have raised within their correspondence with Welsh Government is the difficulty to hold Natural Resources Wales to account at times. In the letter from the leaders of the 22 councils I referred to, written by the leader of the WLGA, Andrew Morgan, they state in that, and I'll quote,
'when dealing with events at a local level there can still be tensions over decisions and choices that have to be made, related to wider governance issues.'
And furthermore, in relation to severe flooding events seen in recent times, in Rhondda in particular, local members have stated that there's a possibility of legal action taking place against Natural Resources Wales. So, there seems to me a deficiency of democracy in holding Natural Resources Wales to account at time. And because of the democratic nature of councils, if councils held some of the functions that currently sit in Natural Resources Wales, do you think there'd be greater accountability and transparency?

Rebecca Evans AC: I'm aware of the letter to which you refer and the concerns around the Rhondda issue in particular, which is why I'm reluctant to go into too much more detail in terms of a response to that particular issue this afternoon. But I will endeavour to have some discussions further with the Minister for Climate Change in terms of the points that you've raised this afternoon and those concerns that the WLGA I know have raised directly with her.

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd. We know, of course, that local authorities have suffered increasing cuts over the past decade—cuts of around 22 per cent in real terms since 2010. Now, we also hear what the implications of that are in terms of services, and in that regard, of course, most recently in terms of social care. Now, I'm sure everyone across the Chamber, and the political spectrum, would agree that there are insufficient funds in the system to meet the need, and to meet that need with the required quality.
We heard the Westminster Government's response last week. Their choice is to increase national insurance, and that will, of course, impact us in Wales. One of the side effects of that, of course, is that there'll be a requirement for employers in Wales to pay an additional share of that national insurance. And I heard in a meeting today with the WLGA that the price of that for local authorities in Wales will be an additional £50 million, which they will have to find to meet that need. Now, in a situation where the public sector, of course, is already under pressure financially, I would like to ask you how you interpret what the implications of that would be for local authorities, and, more specifically, what additional support you as a Government will be providing to local authorities to meet that additional requirement?

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you for raising this important issue this afternoon. I think there's a great deal to be concerned about in terms of the UK Government's approach to the future funding of health and social care, not least because the measures will disproportionately impact and burden working-age people. Most pensioners, of course, will pay nothing. And this, of course, is contrary to the principle of inter-generational fairness, which is at the heart—or certainly part of the heart—ofthe work that the Holtham Commission undertook.
In terms of what funding might become available for Welsh Government in future, we understand that the Barnett consequential arising from the recent announcements might be in the region of around £600 million a year. But what we don't know is what the impact really is in terms of the larger picture, because, of course, the Barnett consequentials give and they also take away. So, we'll have to wait until 27 October before we're able to see the full envelope for Welsh Government funding for the next three years. And it's at that point that we'll really be able to understand the impact in terms of our overall funding levels and to take those choices about support for local government. But I've already said that, in our early discussions about the budget for next year, we will continue to prioritise health and continue to look to give local government the best possible settlement.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Well, yes, thank you for that. Perhaps we don't know how much will come to Wales, but we know that there will be a significant cost for employers and local authorities. That's one aspect of the public sector, of course. You can multiply that across the rest of the public sector in Wales as well. So, I would encourage you to consider additional support specifically for that.
Now, as a society, of course, we have deputised care to those on the lowest level of wages in Wales, and those who receive the lowest level of support, and that can't continue. There are around 64,000 social care workers in Wales. Each one of them, in our opinion, deserve the pay and conditions that reflect the importance of the role that they fulfil for society. We, as a party, have been calling for all social care to be free of charge at the point where it is needed. Also, to introduce a minimum wage of £10 an hour for social care workers, and to shift the funding towards preventative investments that would, of course, transform the requirements within the health system in the long term. Now, the cost of implementing those policies is affordable, but, of course, we need the political will to make that happen.
It was announced yesterday that an inter-ministerial group on paying for social care will meetagain in light of the UK Government's announcement. So, can I ask what the scope of that group's work will be? Perhaps you can expand on that. And, of course, can you be clear on whether it will only be considering paying for care alone? Or, whether there'll be a discussion on how we can use that funding to improve the quality of the care and the well-being of the workforce. Because another message that we receive from local authorities is that, yes, the funding is a problem, but people are a problem as well. And there is a deficit in the workforce and that's just as much of a risk.

Rebecca Evans AC: I think there are two things that we need to do here. The first is to address the immediate pressures that we see within the social care sector here in Wales, which are quite acute now, and you will have heard my colleague, the Minister for health, talking about the impact that has on people being discharged from hospital and so on. So, there's an immediate issue in terms of the social care sector. Part of that is about pay, part of it's about recognition and the kudos of the role. Despite the fact that I think that everybody has woken up to the value of these roles over the past couple of years, we need to make sure that these are roles that people want to go into, which are valued and are valued in the way in which we intend to value through the real living wage, for example. And you'll know that the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership has met with the forum, and asked for the views and recommendations on implementing the real living wage so that we don't do so in a way which destabilises even further the very fragile sector. So, that's the immediate challenge, really, in terms of the workforce.
But that longer term challenge is the one which we were seeking to address through the inter-ministerial group pre COVID, and that was in response to the work which Professor Holtham did in his report, which set out ways in which we could raise funding for social care in the future. And we had a number of additional pieces of work alongside that, which we commissioned, which we published through the course of the last Senedd, which, again, set out potential ways in which we could address the future of care.
I can assure you that the group has looked beyond how we pay for care and the mechanisms of raising the finance and distributing the finance. It was very much about how we use this opportunity to improve care, improve the experience of the workforce. Because we know that when the workforce feels valued it stays, and when people are seeing the same people every day that gives an improvement to the kind of care and relationships and the outcomes for those individuals. So, I just want to reassure you that all of those points, which you've described, are very much part of the work. It's not just about raising the finance.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: In the hope, of course, that there will be a gear change in terms of how quickly these issues are solved, because, as you say, there are problems and there are pressures that we need to deal with, as well as the structural questions that are more long term.
You referred earlier on to some of the groups and the sectors that will be impacted negatively by the decision of the Westminster Government to increase national insurance contributions, and perhaps I'd like to hear some of your ideas now about how you as a Government will try to rectify those negative impacts on those who will be affected disproportionately. And, of course, as is done in Scotland, it's time for us to build the case for devolving powersover national insurance to this Senedd, rather than leaving it up to Westminster to introduce the changes in a way that will have a negative impact on people in Wales. Now, the First Minister agreed with Adam Price here in this Chamber yesterday that devolving national insurance would provide a useful tool for the Welsh Government. And if I remember rightly, he said that he would have argued that that would have been more useful than the devolution of income tax. Can I ask what your opinion is, as Minister for finance, about the need to be robust on devolving national insurance, and also what case are you making to promote that with the Westminster Government?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, you’ll be very aware of the work which was undertaken by the committee in the last Senedd which recommended the devolution of various aspects of the administration of the welfare and benefits system here in Wales. This is absolutely something that we can be looking at. I think we need to understand better the nature of the workforce here in Wales to understand the impacts of any changes on national insurance contributions in terms of the profile, if you like, of the workers that we have here. But, obviously, it’s something that we can look at alongside the work which we’re already undertaking in terms of the response to that report, which recommended that we look into the devolution of various aspects of welfare and benefits.

Additional Funding in England

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 3. What consideration will the Welsh Government give to the impact on Wales of possible additional NHS and social care funding in England when allocating funding to the health and social services portfolio? OQ56802

Rebecca Evans AC: Funding for health and social care has always been a priority in Wales, highlighted by the additional £550 million provided in August to support recovery. We acknowledge the additional funding resulting from UK Government decisions, however the outcome of the comprehensive spending review will be the basis for our budgetary allocations.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I thank the Minister for that response and, as we’ve heard already today in this Senedd Chamber, what we’re seeing in effect is a classic pickpocket trick—somebody is smiling in your face whilst taking the money out of the back pocket of local authorities; out of employers, some of whom will be employing care staff; and out of low-paid staff themselves in care and in the NHS. So, it is a terrible trick to play on people, but they’re smiling while they do it.
But could I ask: do we have any idea about the timescale for the reporting of the inter-ministerial group which has now been reformed? We’ve done so much work in Wales already, well ahead of any consideration they’ve given to this matter in England. We have our ideas in place. In fact, we’ve already put some of them in place, such as reducing the cost on care charges and the amount you can keep on your own residential property. But there’s a lot to be done, including raising the wages of those who deliver care. When are we likely to see the outcome of the deliberations of the inter-ministerial group?

Rebecca Evans AC: Huw Irranca-Davies, obviously, is right that we are many steps ahead of the UK Government in terms of the thinking that we’ve done on this issue and, of course, Huw was the original chair of that inter-ministerial group which pulled together interests from across Government to ensure that we were considering this in a very holistic way, not just, as I said previously, looking at how we raise and distribute the finance.
And again he’s right that we have taken steps which put people in Wales, actually, at an advantage as compared to people in England, because here we have the weekly maximum on the amount that a person can be charged for all of the care and support that they are assessed as requiring at home and in the community. The money that people can keep before paying for care is also much higher here than it is in England.
So, we’re many steps ahead already, but the challenge ahead, I think, as I know Huw Irranca-Davies appreciates, is huge in terms of our ageing population and so on. So, we’ll bring that group together very quickly. We did meet just before the end of the Senedd term, so this isn’t a piece of work which has been on the shelf for a while. Actually, we kept it going right to the end of the Senedd, so it’s just a case of reconvening and picking up where we left off.

Gareth Davies AS: Good afternoon, Minister. Thanks to the actions of the UK Government, Wales will get more than its fair share of the additional national insurance contributions. The additional levy on NI and dividends have been ring-fenced for health and social care spending. How will the Welsh Government ensure that the £0.7 billion that Wales will receive as a result of the UK Government's funding reforms will make it to front-line services? Do you believe that the funding raised via the social care levy should by hypothecated and not form part of the revenue support grant given to local authorities? You've been calling for extra funds, and now you've got them, it's high time that you damn well get on with it and set out your plans for social care, because you've not done thus far.

We don't use language of that nature, really.

Gareth Davies AS: We do. We do. We do.

No, you don't. Okay. Answer the substantive points of the question, please, Minister.

Rebecca Evans AC: I will, and I'll inform the Member that Wales actually doesn't get more than its fair share; on a good day we get our fair share. I'm very interested that the Member seems to be opposed to the funding that Wales gets as a result of our unique social and economic position, and the negotiations that the First Minister previously did, to ensure that Wales had its fair share in terms of Barnett consequentials. But if you think Wales is getting its fair share when we get nothing when Northern Ireland gets a £1 billion bung, then I really don't understand whether you're fighting for the UK Government here or whether you're fighting for your constituents.

Strategic and Economic Development

Alun Davies AC: 4. Will the Minister make a statement on the budget allocated to delivering strategic and economic development planning in south-east Wales? OQ56829

Rebecca Evans AC: We are undertaking a full and comprehensive spending review for capital investment programmes across Wales. This will consider all costs associated with the planning of strategic and economic development and will feed into our new Wales infrastructure and investment strategy that I will publish alongside the budget in December.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to you for that response, Minister. I think on this side of the Chamber we certainly don't think that Wales gets anything like its fair share of resources and funding from the current United Kingdom Government. But in terms of how we spend our resources, one of the lessons I think we will learn over the coming weeks, months and years, looking back over the pandemic, is the way that the Welsh Government has been able to lead a holistic response from the whole of the public sector. And I think one of the lessons that I've certainly seen across—not just in my constituency, but here, looking at the Welsh Government response across the whole country, has been that that whole holistic public sector response has been enormously powerful. The track and trace system here compared with the catastrophic disaster across the border in England is possibly the best, but not the only example.
So, therefore, Minister, how will you look at the management of different footprints in local government, in the health service, with policing as well as Welsh Government services? Because the lesson I've learnt, which I didn't expect to learn over the last year, is that perhaps Gwent worked far better than we anticipated.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you very much for raising that point and for recognising the incredible work of the Welsh public sector in terms of responding to the pandemic. You'll be familiar with the report that was published a little while back now that looked at the various footprints, in particular the regional partnership boards and the other public services boards and so forth, which are there to serve the people of Wales and to bring people together to work in a collaborative and partnership-based way. That report set out a number of recommendations that we are looking at, but we're very clear that any changes to those footprints have to be from the ground up. I'm very pleased to hear that you feel that Gwent pulled together in a particularly good way, and I think part of that is about the good relationships that are built up between those people who genuinely care about their constituents and their communities and their local authorities, and care about doing a good job for them.

Peter Fox AS: Good afternoon, Minister. Minister, Monmouthshire County Council has a series of ambitious plans, including the Monmouthshire 2040 document, 'supporting MCC economies of the future' report, as well as its critical role played in the Cardiff capital region city deal, for economically developing the Monmouth constituency. But what's holding Monmouthshire back, and many other councils across Wales, is the lack of certainty regarding funding. And, as you know, local authorities have repeatedly called for multi-year settlements, which enable them to plan more strategically and to develop their economic planning long term. Now that we know, or it's likely, the UK Government spending review on 27 October will announce a multi-year review, will you be able to make a statement now about—can we extend that same multi-year budgeting or settlement to local government across Wales? That statement now, on the back of what could come from UK Government on the twenty-seventh, would be really welcome, as we've just heard from local government leaders only a few minutes ago.

Rebecca Evans AC: Yes, we've been calling for multi-year settlements too, alongside local government in Wales, for many years. I think it was 2017 when we were last able to publish a budget for more than one financial year. We understand that the next one will be for three years, and absolutely it would be the intention to pass the certainty that we get on to public services here in Wales, in order to allow them to have that opportunity to plan ahead with greater confidence.

Free Ports

Joyce Watson AC: 5. What assessment of the tax implications for Wales has the Minister made of the UK Government's freeports policy? OQ56832

Rebecca Evans AC: Whilst we are willing to engage constructively with the UK Government on this issue, we still haven't received a formal proposal from the UK Government to establish a free port in Wales. Hence, in the absence of detail, we're unable to assess fully the tax implications of the policy.

Joyce Watson AC: I thank you for that answer, Minister, but I'm not at all surprised by it. I have put on record my doubts about free ports. I'm not convinced of the economic argument, and I have concerns relating to the environment, and also to any labour standards that go alongside that. But what I am sure of, however, is that Wales must not be short changed, our key strategic ports like Milford Haven must not be disadvantaged, and policies must not be imposed on us by the UK Government. So, has there been any progress on these issues since July, which is when you last outlined the details coming out—or lack of details coming out—from UK Ministers?

Rebecca Evans AC: There's been no real progress since July, unfortunately. And, in frustration, in August, I wrote a joint letter with Ministers from the other devolved Governments to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury seeking an urgent meeting on free ports, and I'm very disappointed that we have yet to receive a response to that, and disappointed, really, with the general lack of engagement from the UK Government on this policy. As I say, we do remain committed to working collaboratively with the UK Government on free ports, although we do share Joyce Watson's concerns about displacement of activity, for example.
There are three things that are really important if we are to work with the UK Government on this, the first being joint decision making between the UK Government and the Welsh Government in terms of where those ports will be and what the parameters of the deal will be—conditionality, because, like Joyce Watson, we are really concerned about the effect of free ports, potentially, on standards. So, it's important that any free ports in Wales reflect our values and our priorities in terms of environmental standards, but also fair work, for example. And, crucially, it's important that we do receive a fair funding settlement. So, clearly, this is a place-based intervention for which the Barnett consequential just isn't an appropriate way forward. It would not be appropriate for UK Government to be spending £25 million on a free port in England, but only £8 million in Wales, for no other reason than they think that a Barnett share is appropriate.

Natasha Asghar AS: Minister, manufacturing accounts for just 10 per cent of the UK's gross domestic product, which is amongst the lowest of all countries in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. Increasing manufacturing can boost national earnings, and the value of free ports lies in its power to boost economic activity and create new job opportunities in areas of deprivation. A report by the consultancy Mace said that free ports could boost trade by £12 billion a year, increase UK GDP by £9 billion a year and create 150,000 new jobs. I know you just mentioned three points in the previous answer of what you were looking to do and achieve, but do you accept, Minister, that any initial reduction in tax revenue caused by free ports will be offset by the benefits of greater economic activity in deprived areas, more jobs and increased trade, thereby growing the economy as a whole? Thank you.

Rebecca Evans AC: As yet we haven't had those discussions with the UK Government, because they haven't yet responded to our letter from August seeking that urgent meeting. But I think it's fair to say that any kind of open-ended commitment by the Welsh Government to match the UK Government's offer in terms of non-domestic rates and stamp duty land tax, or land transaction tax as it is in Wales, would present a risk to Welsh tax revenues until we have those discussions to better understand the policy that the UK Government intends to implement. And we are more than ready to have those discussions, but, as yet, we haven't even had a reply to a simple letter.

The Land Transaction Tax

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: 6. Will the Minister make a statement on the impact of the land transaction tax? OQ56810

Rebecca Evans AC: Since April 2018, land transaction tax has raised over £800 million. The funds raised have been used to fund our valued public services, including investment in social housing.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you much for that response. Last year, your Government raised the higher rate of the land transaction tax by 1 per cent in order to try and tackle the second homes crisis. At that point, up to 44 per cent of the homes sold in my constituency of Dwyfor Meirionydd were second homes. We in Plaid Cymru warned at that point that that 1 per cent was far from being sufficient and that it would have no impact at all on the housing market. This year again, we have seen that up to 44 per cent of the homes sold in Dwyfor Meirionydd are second homes. Indeed, in your own constituency of Gower, it increased from 24 per cent to 29 per cent. Now, it is time that we saw far more effective changes. Isn't it time for you to consider at least trebling the land transaction tax in order to make a real difference and to devolve that funding to our local authorities so that they can use the funds to build social housing and affordable housing in our communities?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, funding from land transaction tax already supports local authorities and others in terms of supporting our agenda for building more social homes. But I do have to say there are a couple of things that I do need to put on record. So, the additional rate at the moment stands 4 percentage points on top of the main rates for land transaction tax. So, the most recent announcement was an additional, permanent 1 per cent on top of the 3 per cent.
I also think it's important that we portray the figures in terms of house sales and transactions correctly. So, it's not always possible to tell whether properties that are subject to the higher rates were already in one of those categories to which higher rates already applied before the transaction. So, therefore, the transaction may not change the nature of the ownership of the property. For example, a transaction may be from one private holiday home owner to another private holiday home owner, but it also might be from a buy-to-let landlord who's providing a rental property for a local member of the community to another buy-to-let landlord. So, I do think it's important to reflect the figures correctly. They're not all second homes; it's impossible to say that.
It's also important that the figures relate not to the entire stock of the area as well, only to those properties that have been sold. That's not to diminish the fact that I understand that second home purchases are a significant problem and issue in many communities, but I do think it's important that when we are reflecting on the figures we do so in a way that shows the wider picture.

Mark Isherwood AC: Speaking here in February, I stated that
'the Welsh Government's increased land transaction tax higher rates, which hit large numbers of legitimate small and medium-sized businesses, many of them with properties near the internal UK border with England, are higher than equivalent stamp duty land tax higher rates in England for purchase prices up to just £125,000, and higher for all purchase prices in England above just £180,000...even after the higher rates holiday introduced by the UK Government in response to the COVID pandemic comes to an end'.
Further, higher rates of land transaction tax are levied on the purchase of properties to rent, as well as second homes. How do you therefore respond to the constituent who e-mailed last week, 'I have a small holiday let business, and the house next door to me came on the market, being sold through a local estate agent. I wish to renovate it and use it as a holiday let, not a second home. I've found that it is subject to a large amount of land transaction stamp duty. The house is not habitable and I'm trying to encourage people to visit Wales and bolster the economy'?

Rebecca Evans AC: I think that the situation that Mark Isherwood has described does show that there are many factors at play here in terms of people's motivations to buy properties. We've taken the deliberate decision to try and increase the higher rate of land transaction tax, because we're very interested in supporting individuals in communities to be able to buy their home to live in. That's our primary concern in that regard, although we do understand the importance of tourism to many communities in Wales. It's a very difficult balance, but we're very keen to ensure that people are able to find affordable housing to live in in their own communities. Part of that's about using tax. I think that it's possible, sometimes, to overestimate the impact that land transaction tax will have on behaviour; it's fundamentally a revenue-raising tax, of course. But there are several items at play here. It's important that we consider planning. It's important that we consider how much more we can invest in social housing. It's important that we consider how we can work with residential landlords and others to leverage investment into this particular agenda. So, there are many, many aspects here. It's partly about supply of housing, partly about planning, but it's also about how we use the other tools at our disposal. No one of these is going to solve this problem on its own.

Income Tax

Delyth Jewell AC: 7. Will the Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government’s income tax policy? OQ56813

Rebecca Evans AC: We have committed not to take more in Welsh rates of income tax from Welsh families for at least as long as the economic impact of coronavirus lasts. All of our taxes are informed by our tax principles, which are set out in our tax policy framework and which include being clear, stable and simple and supporting delivery of Welsh Government policy objectives, and, in particular, supporting jobs and growth.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Minister. I wish to endorse the points that have already been made by other Members today, namely that the United Kingdom Government's decision to raise national insurance is unfair as it will have an unequal impact on people on low incomes.
In terms of income tax, your Government has the ability to vary the rates within the bands but not the power to introduce new bands. But the Scottish Government has this power, and in 2018 they introduced two new bands, namely the additional intermediate rate for middle-income earners and a starter rate for those on low incomes, which is a penny less than the basic rate. I would like to hear, Minister, your view of the possibility of introducing a starter rate here in Wales, as this could be one practical way of mitigating the impact of the increase in national insurance on those people who receive an income significantly below the average. Would the Minister be in favour of devolving this power and, if so, would she also be in favour of introducing a starter rate of income tax for those earning less than £15,000 per annum, as in Scotland? And if not, could you explain the reason for that, please?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, you're absolutely right to say that the raising of national insurance contributions does have a differential impact as compared to that which would have been achieved by raising rates of income tax, partly because of the way in which the thresholds sit. So, you start paying your national insurance contributions when you're earning at a lower threshold. And of course income tax does include things like pensions and rental income and other things, which often people who are on the lower end of the economic spectrum aren't able to raise anyway. So, it is not a fair way to raise money for this particular agenda, I believe.
As you say, we don't have those powers here in Wales. We have the three bands, which we are currently maintaining at the same level because, as I say, we don't want to put additional burdens on individuals and families at this point. And we'll certainly keep this approach as long as the economic impact of the coronavirus is felt.

Local Taxes

Siân Gwenllian AC: 8. Will the Minister explain the purpose of the current consultation on local taxes for second homes and self-catering accommodation? OQ56822

Rebecca Evans AC: This consultation implements one of the actions set out in our three‑pronged approach to address the impact of second homes on communities in Wales. It seeks views on potential changes to local taxes, including local authorities' powers to apply council tax premiums and the criteria for defining self-catering accommodation as non-domestic property.

Siân Gwenllian AC: The housing crisis, including the second homes crisis, is having a destructive impact on communities the length and breadth of Wales. I welcome this consultation of course, but it would be only part of the solution in tackling the issues contained within this consultation. I'm sure you'd agree with me on that. But, in terms of the consultation itself, when exactly will the recommendations that are drawn up as a result of this consultation be implemented? Can you give us an idea of the timetable around this consultation and what the next steps will be, because we must take urgent action? I'm sure you would agree with that too.

Rebecca Evans AC: Yes, I agree that this is only part of the picture and that action is required urgently, because we know that there are communities in Wales really feeling the pressure in this regard. It's why we've taken some early action, such as the additional 1 per cent on the higher rate of land transaction tax, for example, but there's work going on at this point as well in terms of developing the Welsh language strategy for communities, and part of that, really, is about ensuring that people are able to stay in their Welsh language communities and be able to buy a home there.
So, there are several things happening at once. It's not my intention to spend a long time deliberating on the views that come forward. I know that we're going to have a really wide spectrum of views, from people who are completely opposed to any changes, to people who would prefer us to have an approach that made it even easier to buy second homes, right the way through to people who have a view on the other end of the spectrum. Obviously, all views are welcome and we will be considering them, but I don't want to spend more time than is necessary. Obviously, I understand the urgency of this particular issue.

Finally, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, after one of the busiest seasons ever experienced in Llandudno and north Wales, following the dreadful pandemic, we should instead be thanking our holiday-let operators for the immense economic benefit that they bring to our communities and our tourism offer. This benefit was even recognised in Dr Simon Brooks's report, and must be accepted by this Welsh Labour administration. I know I'm not alone in rejecting the constant flow of negative and belittling comments aimed at our second home owners and self-catering accommodation owners. Many now see this as the Plaid Cymru nationalist stance of being anti-tourist, anti-business and anti-ambition, and quite frankly, Plaid, you need to get another pea in your whistle.
Second homes and holiday lets make up around 3 per cent of housing stock in Conwy, with around 1,182 properties estimated to be eligible for chargeable council tax premium during 2020-21. Local authorities have rightly been hesitant to increase these premiums—a good move for our economy. This tool was actually intended to bring long-term empty properties back into use, but this has not been achieved, because as you well know, Minister, the Government targets have been missed year on year.
The current regressive stance taken by the Welsh Government against our private landlords, however, is only now serving to push them towards the more lucrative market of holiday-let accommodation. The question that does need to be asked today is: what plans does your Government have to reincentivise our private landlords, so as to allow them to remain in the private sector rather than moving over into holiday-let accommodation? Diolch, Llywydd.

Rebecca Evans AC: First of all, I'd like to begin by recognising the tremendous importance of the tourism sector to many parts of Wales. It's the absolute lifeblood of many communities and we want to be sure that we provide everybody with a warm welcome when they come to visit us in Wales, so that they want to come back, and do so year after year. I also think it's important that we see seek to have balanced communities, so communities where people can, as I've said in this session already, remain in their communities and find an affordable home, but also in communities where tourism is really important that we're able to ensure that we have plenty of offer for those tourists as well. So, it's a difficult balance, but I think some of the work that we're doing around the pilot work, looking for communities to work with us there will be important, because all communities are unique in so many ways.
Private landlords do have an important part to play in terms of our housing stock in here in Wales. It's a positive choice for people who want to rent and we've done good work in the past years in terms of Rent Smart Wales and the work that we've done there to try and ensure that the offer from private landlords is a quality offer for individuals here in Wales, and to ensure that that sector does provide a really important and useful part of the housing options for people for whom renting is the right choice. It is a positive choice for many people, so we need to ensure that it's a good experience for them.

I thank the Minister.

2. Questions to the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd

The next questions are for the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd, and I call first of all for question 1 from Vikki Howells.

Animal Welfare

Vikki Howells AC: 1. Will the Minister provide an update on Welsh Government actions to improve animal welfare in Wales over the course of this Senedd term? OQ56805

Natasha Asghar AS: 9. What measures will the Minister propose to strengthen the protection of animals in Wales during the current Senedd term? OQ56824

Lesley Griffiths AC: Llywydd, I understand you have given your permission for questions 1 and 9 to be grouped.
There are several commitments in the Welsh Government's programme for government relating to animal health and welfare in Wales. I have also announced my intention to publish an animal welfare plan for Wales, which will span the term of this Government's office.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Minister. I was really pleased to see Lucy's law, the ban on third-party sales of puppies and kittens, come into effect earlier this month. I want to pay tribute to all the campaigners who supported this law, and place on record my thanks to you for delivering this important intervention. Can you update Members on the engagement that has taken place with businesses, breeders, et cetera, to make sure that they're aware of and compliant with the new rules?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you very much. Well, I was certainly very pleased also to see the regulations that were passed on 23 March, then followed by—. Obviously, we had that six-month transition period to ensure that pet shop owners, for instance, were able to consider a different operating model, so they could mitigate any potential impact. But I was very pleased to see the legislation come in.
Whilst the legislation doesn't allow commercial third parties to sell puppies and kittens under six months of age, it is difficult to police those breeders who breed below that threshold, so I think it's really important that we continue to ensure that our local authorities have the ability to be able to use their discretion, for instance, to look at business cases that come forward, so that they can test if breeders have bred the animals themselves or if they're selling them for someone else, because that obviously then would breach the regulations. The scope of the regulations is very clearly set out in the legislation. I thought that was really important.
We've continued to work in partnership. We haven't just sat back and waited for this legislation to come forward. We've continued to work in partnership with local authorities. You'll be aware of the enforcement pilot project that we had, and the joint working group with the Animal Welfare Network for Wales and the Companion Animal Welfare Group Wales. We worked in partnership during the drafting of those regulations. We also continue to work closely with local authorities around the project that I referred to earlier, to ensure there are no other potential barriers to enforcement. And we're once again—. In my house, we're not allowed to use the 'c' word until December, but I am going to promote that, once again, ahead of Christmas we will as a Government be promoting Paws, Prevent, Protect to make sure that purchasers really think very carefully before they purchase a pet before Christmas.

Natasha Asghar AS: Minister, the COVID lockdown has seen a rise in the number of pets being stolen, with the result that pet abduction is to be made a criminal offence in England. Theft of a pet is currently treated as a loss of the owner's property under the Theft Act of 1968, but this does not adequately recognise the great emotional distress that this can cause to the owner, and also the pet. What action will you be taking, Minister, to keep the law on pet theft in Wales in line with England to ensure that pet owners here enjoy the same protection as those across the border? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: The theft of pets is obviously a criminal act, and it is a reserved matter, as you say, under the Theft Act 1968. You'll be aware, I'm sure, of the pet theft taskforce that DEFRA have brought forward, so my officials have been working very closely with their counterparts in DEFRA to make sure that we can collaborate. I think we have certainly seen more cases of pet theft during the pandemic. I've got a member of my own family that's increased security at their home because of their concerns around pet theft, so I think it is really important that we continue to work collaboratively with DEFRA.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Following the saga of Geronimo, the alpaca, and all the fuss about culling one alpaca when there are 10,000 cattle being culled for the same reason in Wales every year—there are 10,000 Geronimos killed in Wales every year, to all intents and purposes—do you agree that that says a great deal about the lack of understanding that there is amongst the public in terms of the reality of bovine TB? And does it also suggest to you, perhaps, that people don't appreciate how difficult tackling TB is in Wales, and that that does mean taking difficult decisions when dealing with this disease in wild animals?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I think it's like anything in life: if you're really involved with an issue, then obviously your understanding is better. Certainly, there was a huge amount of media interest, as you say, in the case of Geronimo. It is really important that we continue to do all we can to get rid of this dreadful disease.
I will be bringing forward a refresh of the TB eradication programme. As you know, I report annually to this Chamber every year on our TB eradication programme, and I think I will be making a statement to this Chamber in November. Over the summer, I took the opportunity to meet with Glyn Hewinson, who is an academic based at Aberystwyth University, who I know Llyr Huws Gruffydd is aware of, to hear about not just the research but about vaccination for cattle, for instance. When I first met Glyn, he always told me that vaccination for cattle in relation to TB was 10 years away. We now think that's about four years away, so you can see the progress that we are making.

Mike Hedges AC: Anyone who has not been barred by a court can buy an animal. There are no tests for ownership, no statutory instructions of how to look after animals. Is it any surprise that so many animals are badly treated, not always because people want to badly treat them, but due to ignorance? Will the Government introduce some online instructions and tests for those seeking to buy different animals as pets, which would then have to be passed prior to purchase, so people know what they're doing when they take on an animal? And maybe sometimes they'll decide not to buy it because of the amount of work it involves.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Obviously, responsible ownership of animals is something that we have a keen interest in as a Government, and it's a priority, I know, for the Wales animal health and welfare framework group. I'm not sure testing those people who purchase animals is the right approach. I wonder who would be the target audience, for instance. I wonder who would police it. What I do think is important is that we look at regulation, we look at enforcement of animal welfare.
Last week, I attended the new Dogs Trust facility in Cardiff, where I launched the ban on commercial third-party sales of puppies and kittens, and I was very interested to know—. I knew that the Dogs Trust, if you had a dog from them—if they re-homed a dog with you—they continued to offer support. What I didn't realise was that they are open to supporting anyone who takes in a re-homed pet for approximately four weeks, I think the course is. So, I think it's really important that we take advantage of schemes like that also.
I mentioned the social media campaign that we will be running ahead of Christmas again this year; I think this will be third Christmas that we have done this. Again, I think it's really important that we remind prospective purchasers that they need to do some research before they buy their puppy or any other pets. It's really important that we work collaboratively, particularly with third sector organisations—I mentioned Dogs Trust, but we do work, obviously, with other charities and organisations—and make sure that there's really excellent information and research out there for the public to look at.

Intensive Poultry Units

Joyce Watson AC: 2. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the environmental impact of intensive poultry units in Mid and West Wales? OQ56831

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The Welsh Government is taking a holistic approach to assessing and mitigating the environmental impact of intensive poultry units across Wales, through improved planning processes and regulation, partnership working and supporting the industry through knowledge transfer programmes and financial support.

Joyce Watson AC: I thank you for that answer, but according to research by Wildlife Trust Wales, Powys now has more than 150 intense poultry units, housing an estimated 10 million chickens. As a result, an extra 2,000 tonnes of phosphate a year are estimated to be spread onto land in the Wye catchment area. Last September, I asked you for an update on the intensive agriculture working group that was looking at planning guidance for new poultry developments, and you assured me that it was a matter of urgency. And I agree it is, even more so now a year later. Last month, your colleague the Minister for Climate Change wrote to me to assure me that work to understand the source of phosphate pollution in special areas of conservation rivers is under way, and I really welcome that. Given the urgency of the situation, however, can you outline the time frame for that work, please? Will you consider pressing pause on all planning permission for new or extended poultry units until the environmental and community impact of the existing units are fully assessed and understood?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. As you recognised, that work now sits in the portfolio of the Minister for Climate Change, but I understand the apportionment work is expected to be completed by the end of this year. I know her officials and my officials have worked very closely with Natural Resources Wales to be able to monitor the progress of that project. Local planning authorities are already legally prevented from granting planning permission if they're uncertain about whether a development, either individually or alongside a combination of others, will add phosphates to the SAC waters, where targets have been exceeded.

James Evans MS: Minister, on back British and Welsh farming day, I would just like to personally thank all the farmers across Brecon and Radnorshire for the absolutely amazing work they do in protecting our environment and also having food security. But, Minister, farm businesses have had to diversify, due to ever-changing landscapes, and many farmers have had to diversify into the poultry industry as a source of income to subsidise their businesses. Those farmers do their utmost to protect the environment for future generations while protecting our food security. However, Minister, these farming families are continuously attacked by the media, by politicians and by lobby groups who try to push the blame straight onto farmers for poor water quality. Only on the weekend, Dŵr Cymru were pumping raw sewage into the River Usk again and nothing is done to tackle that. So, Minister, can you please tell me what you're going to do to protect those farmers who are continuously being blamed by the media so that we actually start to deal in facts rather than fiction? Diolch, Llywydd.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I think it's very important we deal with facts and not fiction. I hear what you say about Dŵr Cymru. I'm not aware of the circumstances around it, but you've now put it on the record and I will certainly follow that up, because I find it very hard to believe that nothing was done in the way that you outline. I have continually worked with the agricultural sector around pollution. Obviously, you'll be aware there's legal action at the moment around our regulations, so I'm very restricted in what I can say, but I certainly agree with you that we should say a massive thank you to the majority of our farmers who certainly do not pollute our countryside and do ensure that we have food on our plates.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, it was good to welcome you to west Wales in August for the Pembrokeshire County Show. I know your attendance will have been appreciated by the show committee and the exhibitors, and I'm sure you will join with me in congratulating the team on their success with the return of the show, following the cancellation last year. I'm also sure that the Minister will wish to pay tribute to farmers across Wales and Britain today as we mark Back British Farming Day.
But if we are to truly back our farmers, we must now work to get on top of the bovine TB crisis in Wales. This morning's news that the number of new TB herd incidents in Wales has increased by 3 per cent in comparison to England and Scotland, which have both seen percentage decreases, will not instil Welsh farmers with confidence in the Government's current policy and testing regime. Therefore, what discussions has the Minister had with Neil Watt and Gordon Harkiss from MV Diagnostics Ltd, who have developed an alternative bovine TB test, Enferplex, which claims to deliver more accurate results than the current test? And if no meeting has occurred, will you meet with them to discuss the Enferplex test and offer your support to help progress a pilot scheme, which could pave the way for a new Welsh bovine TB strategy to eradicate the disease once and for all?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. It was good to see you also, and Cefin Campbell, at the Pembrokeshire show. It was the only agricultural show that we had over the summer recess, ahead of the Usk Show last Saturday. It was good to show support to the many, many volunteers who had ensured that the show went ahead, in a different format from how we usually celebrate. But it was really good to be there, so, yes, I absolutely join you in thanking them all.
In relation to the TB statistics that were published this morning, we've seen a decrease in new incidents during the most recent 12-month period, which is to be welcomed. And you will have heard me saying in an answer before to Llyr that I will be making a statement in this Chamber in November around the refreshed eradication programme.
On the specific question you asked around Neil and Gordon, I've asked my officials to meet with them. I haven't met them myself. Again, I've referred to the meetings I had over the summer with Glyn Hewison, who advises us in the Welsh Government on our TB strategy, but I'm always keen to hear from anybody who has answers on how we can have a significant impact on this dreadful disease.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Thank you, Minister. Yes, you mentioned the vaccine that could be available in four years' time, but this new test, Enferplex, is being delivered on the ground already, so that really does show that there is impetus within the agricultural community to get this issue sorted once and for all.
However, there also remains nervousness within the industry around the future of the Glastir Organic, Commons and Advanced agreements that are due to expire on 13 December this year. These agri-environmentschemes play an important role within the Welsh agricultural industry, but farmers are now nervously awaiting an announcement as to whether these contracts will be extended for a further 12 months or more.An extension is not uncommon, and Minister, you said yourself that the Glastir replacement, the sustainable farming scheme, would not be introduced until it is absolutely ready. With the industry having first been told a decision would be expected in July, and then late summer, can you please provide clarity over the renewal of these schemes, to give Welsh farmers some level of certainty?

Lesley Griffiths AC: The majority of Glastir Advanced, Organic and Commons contracts do expire at the end of this year, and many contracts are already the subject of multiple extensions and renewals as we've gone forward. Since 2017, when the five-year contract period of Glastir Advanced came to an end, the position was to extend contracts as they expired, but, of course, you'll be aware that the EU rural development programme funding and the uncertainty that we have regarding future budget availability means that that really now is no longer an option. I know there is going to be an increased focus on the future of these contracts, but as I say, until I have some surety about funding, I'm unable to make an announcement.

Samuel Kurtz MS: That will be disappointing for farmers across Wales to hear.
Finally, Minister, I expect many Members across this Chamber would have received a huge range of correspondence from constituents regarding concerns about gaps in Welsh equine ID legislation. Although my colleagues and I have warmly welcomed the mandatory microchipping of horses in Wales, concerns remain about the accuracy of paper passports currently used to trace horses, as well as the low number of microchipped equines entered onto the central equine database. I'm aware that the UK Government is going to be consulting on changes to equine identification and traceability later this year, so what steps are you taking to ensure significant improvements to the system, including the digitisation of equine passports, as the British Horseracing Authority started in July, and providing a frictionless service to safeguard the welfare of horses?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I'm not aware of any correspondence. You referred to quite a large amount of correspondence; certainly nothing's come across my desk. Whether it's in the pipeline, I don't know. But I will have a discussion with the chief veterinary officer, who I know has spoken to the other three chief veterinary officers in the UK around this, and I will write to the Member with the current position.FootnoteLink

Information further to Plenary

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Cefin Campbell.

Cefin Campbell MS: Thank you very much, Llywydd. Having raised with you at the end of the last parliamentary term the need to safeguard the bluefin tuna, I was very pleased to hear back from you, and I quote, saying:

Cefin Campbell MS: 'I am finalising details for a scientific tuna catch and release tagging pilot project in Wales in 2021.'

Cefin Campbell MS: Since then, I haven't heard or seen many of the details or dates from you, and the tuna fishing season has started since August. So, I would warmly welcome more details on these proposals.
But there is a real need to take broader action on fisheries and aquaculture in Wales more generally. Having met, around a fortnight ago, with representatives of the Welsh Fishermen's Association, it's clear to me that many opportunities have been missed over the past 10 years to provide a better system in terms of managing Welsh fisheries. The lack of a legal approach to managing fisheries in a sustainable manner, the model that you use to manage the sector, and the lack of specific resources have caused significant delays in providing sustainable fisheries in Welsh waters. After more than 10 years of being responsible for fisheries management, do you agree that it's time to hold an independent review of marine fisheries and aquaculture in Wales, which would evaluate the resources required to provide the science, policy and legislation for the current Senedd and beyond?

Lesley Griffiths AC: In relation to your first question around tuna, as you say, the season only just started really last month. So, I don't think I'm in a position to give any data at the current time, but, obviously, once the season progresses, I'm sure I will be able to do that.
Your substantive question referred to fishing policy over the last decade, and I really don't recognise the situation that you paint. So, no, I do not think we would need an independent review. Obviously, now we've left the European Union, that does provide an opportunity to have an integrated fishing policy in a way that we haven't done before in Wales that specifically meets the needs of our Welsh fishers and also our coastal communities, because, clearly, the two go very much hand in hand.

Cefin Campbell MS: Thank you very much. I look forward to some sort of internal review on that and a strategy to develop the sector for the future.
Another issue I raised with the Minister prior to recess was the issue of purchasing farmland by major corporations for tree planting, and most of these companies are from outwith Wales, and that land is then used for tree planting rather than food production. Rather than following the principle of the right tree, in the right place, for the right reason, Welsh communities are losing out as any environmental and economic benefits from these steps go to companies from outwith Wales, and they don't remain within local communities. And this is, unfortunately, another example of Welsh resources being exploited by external forces, as has happened over the years with our coal, our water, and our electricity.
Over the summer, unfortunately, it appears that the situation has hastened and accelerated and got worse. And as I've said in the past, if Welsh farmers can't buy land in their own communities when it is available, because they are undermined by multinationals from London, then this will damage the language, culture and heritage of those localities. We know that you've established a national forestry plan, but what steps will you as a Government take to resolve these problems, and to safeguard land and communities in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: You raise a really important point, and I think it's about balance. You did raise this with me, and I've had a discussion with Lee Waters, the Deputy Minister for Climate Change, who you'll be aware did a deep dive into tree planting as a whole. And clearly, the issue of agricultural land being sold to companies, particularly for carbon offsetting, is something that is a concern. But equally, it's very difficult to say to a farmer, 'You should not sell your farmland to this person because of—', and I think that would be a very difficult area for the Government to trespass into.
I did have a discussion with a farmer on a visit over the summer recess, and he highlighted that three farms had been sold off to a multinational company, which I won't name, and his concern around that. But equally, he knew the person who had sold one of the farms, and that person wanted the best money that they could get for it. So again, it's really difficult then for us to have a policy on it. What I do think is really important is that we take every opportunity to make sure that right tree is planted in the right place. That doesn't sit in my portfolio now; even though I've got the funding to buy trees and to encourage farmers to plant trees, it does sit within the climate change directorate. But of course, I will be taking a very close interest in it, and having those further discussions.
Certainly, I can think of very few farmers I've met who object to planting trees. They want to plant trees, they want to look at their hedges and the edges of their farmland, to make sure they use every opportunity they can to help us with that target. And clearly, the national forest is a very long-term project, but I think it's great to see communities wanting to engage. I've had somebody contact me—they've just bought an acre of woodland, and they want that to be part of the national forest. So, I think it has captured the imagination of people, and I'm sure when it's finished it will be as treasured as the coast path is in Wales.

Cefin Campbell MS: Thank you very much. I accept that that's a difficult balance to strike, but there is an opportunity for the Government to work with farmers in order to highlight the benefits that exist in planting trees. And of course, if the situation in terms of planting trees on farmland gets worse, then it will mean that there is less land available for food production in a sustainable manner.
A recent survey of upland farmers in Wales showed that 95 per cent of those questioned had noted that producing and selling food was either very important or relatively important to their businesses. And the importance of food has far-reaching consequences, way beyond the farm gate, as we've seen over the last summer months, as we've seen the importance of robust supply chains in ensuring that people have a safe, affordable, high-quality supply of food available to them. In order to ensure that supply chains are maintained as locally as possible, we need to promote processing capacity here in Wales. And despite this, from the processing of dairy produce to red meat, we have an extractive economy here in Wales, where produce from Wales is very often taken over the border to England for processing. This all represents income and value lost to Wales, never mind the detrimental impact on the environment. So, how will you ensure that we improve and increase processing capacity in Wales? And do you agree that one way of doing so would be to enhance the market for food? And will the Government look at how it can work with public bodies in order to ensure local procurement to promote the economy and strengthen the sector?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, there were quite a lot of questions and some very important points in those questions, and, certainly, I think, one of the things I've done since I've been in portfolio is to try and encourage processors to come to Wales to show that we're really keen to attract them here. Certainly, dairy—that was an area where we were seeing milk go over the border to England in a way that was not good, I didn't think, for Wales. So, we have done some significant work, working with the major processors to ensure that stayed in Wales.
Around public procurement, this is a massive opportunity now, I think, for us to ensure that our public services use Welsh food and drink far more. I don't think we will be able to sustain ourselves with the amount of food that we're producing at the moment, but I'm really keen to do all I can to ensure that we make the most of that. I met with an organisation over recess who were telling me that they were working with the agricultural sector to look at future food, so food that perhaps farmers hadn't even thought that they would be able to grow at the current time. So, I think it is really important that Government works in partnership with these organisations to make sure we take absolute advantage of all the opportunities.

Dog Breeding

Samuel Kurtz MS: 3. What action is the Welsh Government taking to regulate dog breeding in Wales? OQ56814

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The Animal Welfare (Breeding of Dogs) (Wales) Regulations 2014 regulate dog breeding in Wales. The Animal Welfare (Licensing of Activities Involving Animals) (Wales) Regulations 2021 prohibit commercial third party sales of puppies from licensed premises. The Welsh Government is funding a three-year local authority project to improve consistency and enforcement of the current regulations.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Thank you, Minister. I welcome the new rules, informally known as Lucy's law, which came into force last Friday, surrounding puppy and kitten breeding in Wales, and I pay tribute to the many organisations, individuals, including my colleague Janet Finch-Saunders, and many across this Chamber who've campaigned for these improvements and changes. While these rules arrive on our statute books some 18 months later than our neighbours', I'm sure that they will be a valuable tool in the fight to eradicate puppy farms, moving forward. Minister, with local authorities being empowered with these new tools, what reassurances can you give that local authorities won't see this as an additional financial burden? And what consideration has been given to providing formal powers to RSPCA inspectors under the Animal Welfare Act 2006?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, just for the record, whilst we were later than England in relation to this, we went beyond Lucy's law. That's why it's not called Lucy's law; we went beyond that, and ours is far stronger. You will have heard my answer to Vikki Howells—I think it was question 1—around how we have been working. We haven't just been sitting back waiting for these regulations to come into force; we've been working with our local authorities. We funded the three-year project, which is still ongoing, which enhances the training and better guidance for inspectors, and it really improves resources within local authorities. I don't think any of them thought it would be more of a cost. We are continuing to work with the enforcement project, and Monmouthshire County Council is looking at how we set up a database so that members of the public can access the licensing rules and the breeders that they are able to go to, and to provide information, as I say, for purchasers. I understand they went out to tender earlier this year, and those tenders are currently being processed. But I think a database of that quality would be really good, going forward.

Luke Fletcher AS: It's encouraging to know that there is movement in ending the abhorrent practice of ear cropping dogs. Ear cropping is linked to unlicensed breeders, especially of American bully type dogs, and local rescues, such as Hope Rescue in Llanharan, are inundated with reports of ear-cropped dogs and have concerns around current resources to investigate complaints, especially when also linked with unlicensed breeding. For example, it took seven months to bring one breeder to justice, and I'm told that there have been 30 unlicensed breeders with ear-cropped dogs reported to one local authority recently. I'm sure the Minister, like me, wants to see such practices resigned to the history books here in Wales, and I would be grateful if she would be able to update Members on what actions the Welsh Government are taking to address the resource gap reported by rescues across Wales, specifically when it come to ear cropping.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Again, I haven't really heard of the increase in ear cropping of dogs investigations that you refer to, but if you do have some specific examples of it, I'd be very keen for you to write to me so I can take it up with the chief veterinary officer and ask her to look into it. I think it is fair to say that a lot of the legislation, which isn't devolved—I mean, some of it is; some of it isn't—but certainly some of the legislation that's reserved, is not fit for purpose, around particularly our rural crime that we're seeing. I've had discussions—I mean, we've now got a rural and wildlife crime commissioner, but prior to that—with some of the rural teams in relation to this. So, I have been ensuring officials work with the UK Government to make sure that legislation is fit for purpose. But I would be grateful if you could write to me specifically on this point, please.

Jane Dodds AS: I have a rescue greyhound. Every year, young and healthy greyhound dogs are killed because they lack winning potential, were injured while they were racing, or are no longer competitive. Racing greyhounds routinely experience terrible injuries on the track, such as broken legs, cardiac arrest, spinal cord paralysis and broken necks. My own dog has a very injured neck, for example, so I can speak from experience. They also suffer off the track, spending most of their time stacked in warehouse-style kennels. Minister, given the level of cruelty to greyhounds, I hope the Government can move to consider a ban on greyhound racing here in Wales. Could you please make a statement on your position on banning greyhound racing in Wales? Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, and it's great that you have a rescue dog. Certainly, when I was at the Dogs Trust last week—no, the week before, sorry—promoting our ban on third party sales, there were several greyhounds at the dog rescue. I probably shouldn't tell you that, because you'll be going round there. We did have a discussion around the number, because it was very obvious how many were there. I will have to write to the Member on the current position in relation to greyhounds.FootnoteLink

Information further to Plenary

Road Repairs

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 4. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Climate Change regarding repairing roads in north Wales that were affected by flooding this year? OQ56817

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch. I have not had any specific discussions with the Minister for Climate Change. However, transport officials have been in discussion with local authorities and are awaiting applications for funding this financial year for ground investigation and detailed design works. Local authorities are fully aware of what was required, and the sooner Welsh Government receives the information requested, the sooner it can be considered.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you for your answer. The B5605 at Newbridge near Wrexham, as I'm sure you will have guessed I was going to raise, was swept away, of course, by a landslip caused by storm Christoph recently. It isn't a rural back road, as you know. It's quite an important through road for a large number of communities, a large number of people, and it transpires now it could be two, maybe three years before that road is fixed, if at all, if funding is available. Now, the delays have already led to greater subsidence at the site, which will only ultimately mean a greater cost to fix the road. So, in your role as Minister for north Wales, can I ask what efforts you've made to make fixing this road a greater priority of Welsh Government, and, indeed, what efforts you've made to try and make sure that funding is available to fix the road as soon as possible?

Lesley Griffiths AC: So, whilst I haven't had a discussion with the Minister for Climate Change, I have had a discussion with officials at Wrexham council. I did a visit to the aqueduct, and, of course, as you know, the road that you refer to, which, of course, Wrexham council are responsible for, is not far away. So, I know there's been a further meeting between transport officials and officers at Wrexham council. As I say, we're waiting for an application for funding for this financial year for ground investigation and the design works. That, then, will inform, obviously, any future application that comes from the council for funding the construction work that's required. I know that Wrexham council did submit a bid for funding to make urgent repairs to the flood risk management infrastructure. But that funding—it was, obviously, previously in my portfolio—is only available when it's acting in accordance with the Flood and Water Management Act and in line with the policy that's set out in the national strategy for flood and coastal erosion risk management infrastructure and the grant memorandum. So, their bid was unsuccessful because any repair works wouldn't reduce the risk of flooding, which, obviously, is the reason funding is given. So, I appreciate that it's very frustrating, but it is really up to the council now to make sure that they provide the information that the Welsh Government have asked for. So, I will continue to press for this. Obviously, it is a matter of urgency, but I'm afraid that the ball is firmly in the council's court.

Gareth Davies AS: Good afternoon, Minister. Flooding caused by last winter's storm—storm Christoph—had a devastating impact on communities in the Vale of Clwyd, most notably with the destruction of the historic Llanerch bridge, which lies between Trefnant and Tremeirchion, and isolating these communities as they're rural. The latest estimates put the start of the works to replace the bridge during the summer of 2023. I don't find this acceptable, as don't over 300 of my constituents, who recently signed a petition online calling for a swift resolution. Do you agree with me, Minister, that the historic bridge should be replaced sooner and will you work with the local authority to expedite the reconstruction of the Llanerch bridge? Thank you very much.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Obviously, in my capacity as Minister for north Wales, again, this has not been raised directly with me, but I'm sure that it has been raised—I'm not even sure if you haven't raised it—with the Minister for Climate Change. But I will certainly ask where the bid is and what work has been done with organisations to have a look at this bridge in Llanerch and I will write to the Member.

Carolyn Thomas AS: I'm aware of quite a lot of infrastructure in north Wales that's been impacted by flooding, including those two examples that have been raised today, and they've not fitted that criteria for funding that the Minister mentioned earlier. I am aware, as previous cabinet member for transportation, that, every year, there's an underspend that usually goes to the trunk road agency. I think, last year, there was an underspend of £16 million and previously £20 million—it's quite a significant amount of underspend that goes back, sometimes to local authorities, but mainly the trunk road agency, which does have quite a lot of funding each year that I'm aware of. And with the pause on building new roads as well, could that money be reallocated to help with infrastructure that's been damaged by flooding, which would greatly help local authorities that are really cash-strapped in north Wales? That's the question to you, thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. As I just referred, that budget sits with the Minister for Climate Change, or the Deputy Minister for Climate Change, and, as you're aware, he's currently doing a review of roads. I'm not personally aware of any underspend and, obviously, we're not very well into this financial year yet. But, clearly, it might be advisable if you wrote to the Deputy Minister for Climate Change on that specific point around his budget.

Pet Theft

Sioned Williams MS: 5. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of pet theft on animal welfare in Wales? OQ56815

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The theft of pets is a criminal act. It is a reserved issue under the Theft Act 1968. DEFRA recently published the pet theft taskforce report and recommendations. My officials will continue to discuss the proposed UK Government's new criminal laws and how we can collaborate to tackle this serious issue, alongside issuing strong messaging on responsible ownership.

Sioned Williams MS: Diolch, Weinidog. I also want to raise the issue of pet theft with the Minister, alongside Natasha Asghar, and especially dog theft, because we did see that sharp rise in the demand for pups during the pandemic, which has been linked to the recent rise in dog thefts, as, sadly, dogs have increasingly become a profitable target for thieves. In my region of South Wales West, 59 dogs were rescued in an operation across Swansea and Neath Port Talbot in April this year. A number of these dogs were believed to have been stolen, and this was in addition to six stolen dogs rescued by police in Briton Ferry in January. I welcome that which you said in your answer previously about co-operation with DEFRA, but can you tell worried owners in my region when we can expect action to be taken on this issue here in Wales? Can you provide a timetable, and how, specifically, is the Welsh Government working with police and other stakeholders, like RSPCA Cymru, to deal with this matter?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, we are working closely, obviously, with the police. As I say, it's a criminal act. It's no different to stealing a car. It's far more emotive, and I absolutely understand that. As I say, I think that people are very afraid because we did see a significant rise in the theft of, particularly, dogs—puppies and dogs—during the pandemic, when there was that increased request for them.
There are some key recommendations in the DEFRA taskforce, which I think we can certainly look to work in. For instance, how we enhance the record-keeping of dogs as pets, because at the moment, we probably don't have that in the way—. One of the reasons for having the database for breeders was then to try and see if we could enhance that to have some sort of register of pet owners, for instance. At the moment, the current legislation just treats pets as mere property. That was why I gave the analogy with cars. So, I think that there is more that we can do around that.
Pet abduction needs to be a specific offence, rather than just that you are stealing something. It's a specific offence. So, I think that that is another area that we can look at. But we are working closely at the moment on this taskforce. I haven't got a complete timeline that I can give you, but please be assured that it is a priority.

Altaf Hussain AS: We know that there has been an increase in dog theft, for example, over the past year or so. What discussions has the Minister had with the police about the information to new pet owners about the steps that they could take to safeguard their pets?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I'm not aware of any specific discussions in the way that you referred. I have outlined the work that we are doing as a Government to ensure that there is a focus on this, because we have certainly seen an increase in pet theft. I think that it is really important that owners take steps that they can do also to ensure the safety of them. We have certainly seen some horrendous cases that have been highlighted to me, and I think that Sioned Williams just highlighted an important case in her region. But I'm not aware of any specific discussions.

Bryn Cegin Business Park

Siân Gwenllian AC: 6. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Economy regarding the current responsibility of the Welsh Government in developing Bryn Cegin business park in Bangor? OQ56823

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch. There have been no specific ministerial discussions regarding Parc Bryn Cegin. A recent BBC headline misleadingly suggested that the Welsh Government agreed the sale of the undeveloped business park. The sale of two plots have been approved by the Minister for Economy, and a number of further enquiries are being progressed.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Well, thank you very much, because I read in the press that it was the Government's intention to sell the park, or parts of the park. It's good to have confirmation from you today that you are talking about two plots and not the whole park. But it is scandalous, isn't it, that not a single job has been created in this park after almost 20 years under the management of Welsh Government. So, may I ask you, as Minister for north Wales, what is the long-term plan for this park? And is selling these plots good news, or is it a signal that the Government has given up entirely in terms of bringing jobs to this important site?

Lesley Griffiths AC: No, not at all. The site has been identified as a potential development opportunity within the north Wales growth deal, for instance. I know that officials are working very closely with the north Wales economic ambition board to continue to explore investment and job opportunities at the site. There has been a spike in market interest recently, and I know that there are a number of enquiries, as I referred to in my original answer. We also continue to work very closely with Gwynedd Council to see what we can continue to do to attract businesses to the site.

Mixed Arable and Livestock Farming

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 7. How will the Welsh Government ensure a sustainable future for small and medium-scale family-run mixed arable and livestock farming in the south Wales valleys? OQ56801

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I propose to create a new system of farm support, which maximises the protective power of nature through farming. This will be available to all types of farms in Wales, rewarding our active farmers who take action to respond to the climate and nature emergencies, supporting them to produce food sustainably.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I thank the Minister for that answer, and ‘active farmers’ are key to that answer. Cwm Risca farm, which I know very well—I’ve visited them many times, most recently in the last couple of weeks—is a classic, small to medium-scale family-run enterprise. It’s diversified. It’s award winning as well. It’s mixed arable and livestock. It does the right thing for its fields, it does the right thing for the community, for the environment—it’s the type of farming that supports the local community and culture as well. It’s the type of farming we should be supporting in Wales, and it’s the opposite of the absentee-landlord, speculator-driven agri-industrial type of farming we see elsewhere.
So, in these uncertain times, Minister, with changes in funding, waiting for funding from the UK Government to be confirmed post Brexit as well, our biodiversity targets and climate change targets are stretching as well, how can we give the assurance that this type of farming is the type of farming we will see for the long term, for sustainable food, a sustainable environment and sustainable communities in Wales? And would she at some time come and visit Cwm Risca, because I know the welcome would be good, the discussion great, and the cake and tea good as well?

Lesley Griffiths AC: The cake and tea is always good on farm visits, I’ve always found, and certainly I’d be very happy to do a visit, if they would like to invite me, Huw.
Small and medium-scale farms play an absolutely fundamental role in the resilience of so many of our rural communities, and that’s why they must be protected. As you say, it’s been a very uncertain time, and continues to be, for our agricultural sector, certainly because of EU exit, I think, primarily.
Next week, I will be making a statement on the next steps in relation to our sustainable farming scheme. At the current time, we are conducting a range of analysis to explore the potential impacts of our proposals, therefore helping us then to design our scheme to provide those opportunities for farms across Wales. The future scheme’s got to work for farmers. It’s got to work for all farms—small, medium and large—so that they can help us achieve our ambitions, because they absolutely see themselves as part of the solution to the difficulties that we face.
We’re going to have a further phase of co-design with the industry. I think it’s fair to say our co-design has certainly been impacted by the COVID-19 pandemic—we’re not as far forward as we would have liked to have been. So, we’ve really stepped up that co-design work over the past couple of months to make sure that we shape our proposals in the correct way. We’ve had a great response from the agricultural sector for that first phase of the work, and I really, again, would encourage any farmer to get involved in the next phase.

And finally, question 8, Paul Davies.

Farmers in Pembrokeshire

Paul Davies AC: 8. What is the Welsh Government doing to support farmers in Pembrokeshire? OQ56808

Lesley Griffiths AC: Farmers in Pembrokeshire received over £17 million of basic payment scheme payments during the past year, and our Farming Connect service continues to provide crucial support and advice. As you heard before, I was very pleased to attend the Pembrokeshire county show last month, and really enjoyed being able to meet the farming community in Pembrokeshire once more.

Paul Davies AC: Thank you for that response, Minister, and I’m delighted that you enjoyed the Pembrokeshire county show a few weeks ago. Now, as we’ve already heard on the floor of this Chamber today, bovine TB continues to pose a significant threat to farmers in Wales, including farmers in Pembrokeshire and, despite their efforts to clamp down on it through cattle-based measures, it continues to place enormous emotional and financial strain on farming families. Therefore, Minister, what assessment has the Welsh Government made of the emotional and financial strain on farmers caused by bovine TB? And will you finally commit to looking at this issue holistically, including dealing with the disease in wildlife, when you bring forward your bovine TB refresh strategy later this year, so that we can stop bovine TB doing irreparable damage to agriculture and to our rural communities?

Lesley Griffiths AC: We’ve always looked at this disease holistically, and it’s really important that we work in partnership together with our farmers. It is a dreadful disease and I don’t underestimate the emotional impact it has. And as you say, it has a financial impact, of course, and I’ve spoken to several farmers over the summer on visits around this dreadful disease. As you have just referred to,I will be making a further statement for the next stage of the refreshing of the eradication programme in November. It's good to see that there's been a decrease in new incidents during the most recent 12-month period, and I will continue to do all I can to work with the sector, to try and eradicate this awful disease as quickly as possible. You will have heard me say about the discussions I've had with Glyn Hewinson, and, of course, the vaccination is only one thing that, unfortunately, is still about four years away. But you will be aware of the bespoke action plans that we've had, with the herds that are in long-term breakdown, and we've seen some progress there too.

I thank the Minister.

3. Topical Questions

The next item would have been the topical questions, but no topical questions have been accepted.

4. 90-second Statements

The next item, therefore, is the 90-second statements, and the first 90-second statement this afternoon is from Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Diolch, Llywydd. Today marks the National Farmers Union's annual Back British Farming Day, a fantastic opportunity in which we can recognise, support and thank our hard-working farmers from across the United Kingdom. Welsh farming is the cornerstone of Wales's £7.5 billion food and drink supply chain industry, employing over 229,500 workers and contributing millions of pounds to Wales's economy. From Snowdonia's world-renowned cheese to Pembrokeshire's multi award-winning hand-picked early potatoes, our farmers are working 24/7, 365 days a year to deliver outstanding produce for the millions of families across Wales and the United Kingdom. Indeed, Llywydd, Back British Farming Day marks the perfect opportunity for us all to take a moment and reflect on the industry's contribution, both throughout the pandemic and beyond. During this pandemic, it was our farmers who continued to tend to the land to ensure that food was available throughout. As we continue to fight back against climate change, it is our farmers who, as the natural custodians of our environment, lead the way with their exceptional animal welfare and environmental standards. Therefore, Llywydd, I hope Members join me in taking the opportunity in saying 'thank you' to our farmers in recognition of their commitment and contribution. Diolch.

The next statement is by Jack Sargeant.

Jack Sargeant AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Llywydd, last Friday was World Suicide Prevention Day. For many of us, this day is one that brings challenges but also one that brings determination and hope—hope that, together, we can raise awareness of how we can create a world where fewer people die by suicide. The latest statistics show that, in 2018 in the UK and the Republic of Ireland, more than 6,800 people died by suicide, and I want to be clear, Llywydd, that every life lost to suicide is a tragedy. We can create a safer world by raising awareness of the support that's already out there, and campaigning for better support, more available support and more approachable support. But I must say, Llywydd, it pains me that there is still significant stigma around not being okay. And I have absolutely no shame, in standing in this Chamber today, in saying that, sometimes, I don't always feel good. So, Llywydd, and Members around this Chamber, you usually know, and we understand, that when we stand up in this Chamber, we usually have a request for the Government. But today, I have a simple request for you all—a favour, if I can put it that way: check in with your friends, check in with your colleagues and ask them, 'Are you okay?' Remind them that it is okay to not be okay, and, importantly, be there for them when they need you. Diolch yn fawr. [Applause.]

The next statement is from Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan AS: On 12 September 1981, CND Cymru was formed in a conference in Newtown. But even though we celebrate this important milestone, this is bittersweet. After all, the organisation was established to campaign specifically against nuclear weapons, and with nuclear weapons still present worldwide, it is a cause of great sadness to many that the organisation still has to exist and still has to campaign. Only when the final missile has been decommissioned and the world is free from mass weapons of destruction can we celebrate this work. The campaign continues, and I'd like to thank all of those individuals in our communities that have been part of the story of this movement. It's thanks to them that the nuclear-free Wales statement was signed, which meant that Wales was the first nation in the world to state that it is a nuclear-free state. And thanks to them, CNC Cymru has acted as a partner in the international campaign to abolish nuclear weapons. The president of CND Cymru, Jill Evans, asked us to restate our objective to eradicate nuclear weapons. In Jill's words, 'Nuclear weapons are too dangerous and are too expensive. They are immoral and illegal. Getting rid of nuclear weapons would set a new direction, a safe direction and a better direction, for Wales and the world.' Hear, hear.

And next, Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams MS: Thank you, Llywydd. The Swansea valley community where I live, and the community I represent, and the whole of Wales today commemorates the Gleision colliery disaster exactly 10 years since the disaster. On 15 September 2011, four local colliers were killed—Charles Breslin, David Powell, Phillip Hill and Garry Jenkins—in the Gleision quarry in Cilybebyll near Pontardawe when the colliery was flooded. I'm sure that we all here are thinking of the families today. Grief is an extremely difficult process in and of itself under any circumstances, but, in this case, the families have to face the additional pain of not having a full inquest into the tragedy held. There are questions still to be answered about what happened, and there are lessons to be learned for the future about dangers that still exist, unfortunately, in the coal-mining industry. I would like to support their call for an inquest into these deaths.
The disaster had a grave impact on communities in that area, and there will be two events to remember the four people lost. There will be a memorial dram unveiled by Cilybebyll Community Council in Rhos park, the area where the families gathered to wait for news exactly 10 years ago today, and at 6 o'clock Ystalyfera Community Council will unveil a memorial bench.

Sioned Williams MS: The price of coal has been too high in Wales. We must ensure everything is done so no more families like those of the Gleision miners pay this terrible and unacceptable price. We remember them today—fe'u cofiwn.

We will now take a short break to allow for changeovers in the Chamber.

Plenary was suspended at 15:17.

The Senedd reconvened at 15:32, with the Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) in the Chair.

5. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Access to defibrillators

The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Welcome back, and the next item is the Welsh Conservatives' debate, access to defibrillators. I call on Gareth Davies to move the motion.

Motion NDM7771 Darren Millar
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes that only 1 in 10 people survive an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest.
2. Further notes that for every minute a patient does not have access to a defibrillator or cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR), their chances of survival drops by 10 per cent.
3. Recognises that a network of defibrillators will save lives.
4. Calls on the Welsh Government to provide grant funding or loans to enable community halls, sports grounds and independent shops to buy and install a defibrillator.

Motion moved.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you very much, Deputy Llywydd. It's a pleasure to open this debate in the name of Darren Millar on behalf of the Welsh Conservative group. This motion today is something I know garners huge cross-party support. The out-of-hospital cardiac arrest survival rate in Wales is the lowest in the UK and one of the lowest in Europe. This is something that all of us in this Chamber should do all we can to improve in Wales. What better way to follow up on World First Aid Day, which happened at the weekend, and to mark Save a Life September, than by supporting this motion before us? Some 30,000 people across the UK suffer a cardiac arrest outside of hospital every year, with only one in 10 people before the pandemic surviving. And now, the British Heart Foundation are estimating that one in 20 people survive as a consequence of the pandemic.
Defibrillators play a huge part in saving someone's life when they suffer a cardiac arrest. If used within five minutes of a cardiac arrest, it can increase survival rates from 6 per cent to 74 per cent. Without immediate treatment, the vast majority of sudden cardiac arrest victims will die, which is why access to defibrillators is so important. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank Calon Hearts for providing defibrillators in my hometown of Prestatyn and at Denbigh Rugby Club. These vital machines will undoubtedly save the lives of my constituents, but we need so many more of them. While charities such as Calon Hearts, the British Heart Foundation, as well as rotary clubs up and down the country are doing what they can, the Welsh Government needs to step up.
They have to ensure that there are defibs in every community in Wales and legions of people trained in CPR. Without these two vital links in the chain of survival, far too many people die from a cardiac arrest. We have all seen the stories over the past few weeks about the performance of our ambulance service. The Welsh Ambulance Services NHS Trustis overworked and overwhelmed. In my health board, Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, only half of all 999 red calls receive a response within the eight-minute target. Our motion points out the chance of surviving a cardiac arrest decreases by 10 per cent every minute. It's no wonder that the survival rate of cardiac arrest in Wales is the lowest of the United Kingdom nations. Just over 4.5 per cent of people survive a cardiac arrest in Wales. Over the border in England, twice as many people survive, statistically.
With fewer and fewer 999 calls meeting the red call target, we must ensure that people in the community have the tools and skills to respond. It takes as little as 30 minutes to train someone in CPR, and a defibrillator can be used without any training at all. Modern automated external defibrillators, or AEDs, the kind of kit being provided by Welsh charities, are idiot proof. They instruct the user on how to operate the machine and save somebody’s life.
It has been just over three months since Christian Eriksen, the Denmark national football team captain, collapsed during a Euro 2020 match against Finland. And more seasoned footballers might remember Marc-Vivien Foé back in 2003, I think: he played for Manchester City; he sadly didn't survive, but Christian Eriksen did, fortunately. As people around the world watched the remarkable medical team intervene to save Eriksen’s life, it became clear that the football star had suffered a cardiac arrest. Thankfully, the quick-thinking medical team jumped into action and carried out CPR on him and used a defibrillator to save his life. But, unfortunately, not everyone is as lucky as Christian Eriksen, as we saw all those years ago with Marc-Vivien Foé. Maqsood Anwar also, aged 44, died after suffering a suspected heart attack while playing cricket in the Vale of Glamorgan earlier in the summer, and a few weeks later, 31-year-old Alex Evans died after having a cardiac arrest while playing rugby in Neath Port Talbot.
According to the Resuscitation Council, the public needs to be within 200m of a defibrillator. Given their life-saving impact, it is fundamentally important that we have defibrillators installed in as many easily accessible public spaces across Wales as possible. There are currently just over 4,000 external defibrillators in Wales, something which the Welsh Conservatives want to change quickly. But we cannot rely upon charities to provide these vital pieces of life-saving kit—the expense is just too great. Each machine can cost around £1,500, particularly those machines robust enough to be placed in community settings. It is the Government that is failing to provide sufficient emergency cover, so it should be the Government that funds the cost of the training and the kit to provide emergency cardiac care in the community.
According to a Welsh Government report in 2019, over 55 per cent of people surveyed said that they did not know where the nearest defibrillator was. Two years later, they have finally introduced funding for Save a Life Cymru. This funding is helping to develop a programme to educate people on how to help someone suffering a cardiac arrest, and also to help people gain confidence in using a defibrillator. Although this funding and scheme are welcome, we simply need to do more. The people of Wales deserve to have a defibrillator in every community hall, sports ground and even in independent shops, so that we can slash the number of deaths by cardiac arrest in Wales.
I urge Members to support this motion today and send out a clear message that Wales is taking action during Save a Life September. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I have selected the amendment to the motion. I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services to formally move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Amendment 1—Lesley Griffiths
Delete point 4 and replace with new points:
4. Recognises the £2.5 million funding provided by Welsh Government to Save a Life Cymru to improve awareness and access to CPR and defibrillation.
5. Notes the Welsh Government commits to extending this support by £500k this year to further increase the number of defibrillators in community settings across Wales.

Amendment 1 moved.

Eluned Morgan AC: Formally.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: We will be supporting this motion today. This isn't a party political matter, of course. I've worked on joint statements with Labour and Conservative Members in the past on this issue, and what is in front of us today is sensible and asks for basic and practical steps to be taken to save lives across Wales. It's a campaign I've been a part of myself. It's relevant to all of us.
Whilst the majorityof cases of cardiac arrest happen within the home, a significant proportion of them happen outwith the home. And we know how vitally important the availability of defibrillators is to provide an opportunity for someone to survive an event such as this. One amongst us has had this experience relatively recently, but it happens on a daily basis. There are places in particular where we know that it's vitally important to have these machines, because international studies show that one is more likely to suffer a cardiac arrest in transport hubs, in shopping centres, in sports centres, in places such as golf courses and so on. So, it should be the aim for each one of us to ensure that there is genuine support, practical support and financial support from Government to allow that to happen, and there is always room for the Government to do more.
And that's why I don't want to support, and we won't be supporting the Government amendment today. Of course the Government has invested in this area already, and what we have here is an amendment that notes that. But I think we need to do more on a day like this than just noting the steps that have already been taken by Government. What we want is for the Government to accept, yes, there is more that we can do, always.
There is so much more that needs to be looked at than just funding. The question of a register is very important. There is one register, The Circuit—the national defibrillator network—where it is possible to note where all of these machines are across the United Kingdom, and I know that the British Heart Foundation is calling for the UK Government to encourage those who look after their own machines to register them. Awareness raising is always important. How many of us here have been taught by the British Heart Foundation and others how to use defibrillators? I, and my office, have opened the door to hold classes in the past for more people to have that practical information on how to use these machines. So, we do need to do much more to improve awareness amongst the public.
But, as an initial step, let us all support this motion, and make it clear that we, as a Senedd, are united on this question of the importance of these small machines that can make such a big difference to the lives of individuals and families in all parts of Wales.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate today. There aren't many days when I walk in and don't think of this subject, because I see my colleague from Blaenau Gwent here, who has spoken eloquently of his personal experience—traumatic experience, I would suggest—and the importance of people having knowledge, when it comes to defibrillators, means that he is here with us. There are some days when he is contributing that maybe I wish he was in the tea room rather then in here—[Laughter.]—but it's great to see him around and walking and enjoying life.
And it is good to see a smile on people's faces when that is said, because the other contributor to this debate in the previous Assembly was Suzy Davies, who led many a debate in here about the need to have, in the curriculum in particular, education around defibrillators and the use of defibrillators in the community, because there's no point in having them if you can't use them and deploy them, and I think we all agree with that point as well. I'm pleased to see that the former Government did change its stance after much lobbying from Suzy Davies to get this important point into the Curriculum and Assessment (Wales) Act 2021, so that there would be space within the curriculum for that education to be provided in colleges and schools the length and breadth of Wales, because, again, we hear the numbers, as Gareth in his opening remarks touched on, and 8,000 people will experience a cardiac arrest in Wales every year.
Cardiac arrests kill more people than lung cancer, breast cancer and AIDS combined—combined. That's worth reflecting on. With lung cancer, breast cancer and AIDS combined, more people die of cardiac arrest here in Wales. But there is a solution: we can make these devices more readily available, and we can make sure that these devices are in every community the length and breadth of Wales. But what's important is that when we make them available they're available for 24/7 use, not just in limited occupations, such as in college settings, for example, where many colleges indicate that they have them, and that's to be welcomed, but it's not much good being in the college if the door's locked and you can't get to it when you need it. And so that's why we need more community activism to try and get more community halls, and sports settings in particular, to make sure they make use of these facilities. And that's why I've been so pleased in my role—and I'm not seeking re-election in May next year, so this isn't a pitch for the election next year; I do declare an interest—that I've had the pleasure of playing a part in raising funds for at least five defibrillators in the ward of Rhoose to make sure that from the football club to the residential setting of Rhoose Point to the village of Llantrithyd, there are now defibrillators available to those communities. And that's where it is really important.
I regret that the Government have chosen to delete the one point in this motion today that actually called on action on behalf of the Government to engage with community groups to make sure money was available on a consistent and sustainable footing to make sure that we can get those numbers up that Gareth touched on. At the moment, we know there are about 4,000 defibrillators across Wales. We most probably need, if we're going to be having meaningful national coverage, double that number, and that's a big ask. But I do believe that the Government have taken a backward step in trying to seek to delete this point in the motion this afternoon, because it is a consensual motion and ultimately looks to achieve that national coverage by calling on the Government to make those national resources available.
I appreciate the Government amendment talks to money that's been made available by the Government to various community groups, but clearly, there's a lot, lot more work to be done. When you look at the education responses the Welsh Conservatives have had back, in particular from local education authorities, only Denbighshire could indicate exactly what the school settings had when it came to defibrillators. The other 11 local authorities out of 12 who responded to the FOI confirmed that there is no centralised database within the education department to indicate where in schools defibrillators might or might not be. Again, that's a gaping hole in our understanding of what we can do.
There's a lot of work to do, but we are making progress in this area. I hope we can find a consensus with this debate today, because as we've seen with the pandemic, regrettably it was one in ten before the pandemic who survived a cardiac arrest here in Wales, and it's now one in 20, so the numbers have gone backwards. That's no-one's fault, because of the pandemic—I accept that—but it emphasises the mountain that we've got to climb and the work we've got to do in communities across the whole of Wales to make sure that we create greater education around the use of defibrillators, and access to defibrillators, importantly. I'll repeat that line again: they need to be readily available 24/7. There's no point in ticking a box saying that defibrillator is in a locked setting that's unavailable for 12 hours of the day, or for the weekend period. Because as Alun had in his experience, he happened to be in a park; at the end of the day, he was lucky that somebody someone went past and could action what was needed to do to bring him back to life. But who knows where that might strike one of those 8,000 people in Wales who would have that cardiac episode.
I call on the Government to do more, as inevitably the opposition does when it comes to debates on a Wednesday afternoon. But I do commend the Government for the work that it did in the last Assembly with Suzy Davies in making sure that there was a space in the education curriculum to allow greater educational learning so people know what to do if they're presented with that. I'm getting looked at by the Presiding Officer now, because the red line has come up, so on that note, I'll close. Thank you.

Alun Davies.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm grateful to the Welsh Conservatives as well for bringing this debate to the Senedd at the beginning of this new term, and I'm grateful for the kind words we've just heard.
In terms of where we are, the speech just made by Andrew R.T. Davies is absolutely correct: it is good and we do welcome and we are grateful for the work that Government has completed, and we're eternally grateful for the work of individuals and groups and communities up and down the country who have put in place this life-saving equipment in communities across Wales. But what I will say to the Minister this afternoon is that you cannot rely on charity to deliver an emergency response when somebody is lying between life and death with only minutes to spare. You cannot rely on goodwill or good wishes on a Wednesday afternoon to deliver the treatment that is required. It is only Government that can deliver that. I hope that this afternoon we will reflect on the experience of people—not so much the experience of people like myself who have suffered a cardiac arrest and survived, but the families who have lost loved ones because they didn't survive, and we know Members here in this Chamber have been affected by that in that way.
We know that people who appear to be in the best of health have suffered a cardiac arrest with no warning, no symptoms, no chance and no opportunity to seek medical help and medical support. It was terrifying to watch what happened to Christian Eriksen in the summer. What happened to him was exactly what was described as happened to me—no warning, no knowledge, in the middle of some physical activity you anticipated, you expected, to survive. He fell down with a cardiac arrest in exactly the same way as I did. It is only the support and help of people in our community that will enable the paramedics, the cardiologists and the surgeons to use their skills, to use their knowledge, to use their experience to ensure that people can then go on and live their lives. Certainly, the treatment that I received here in Cardiff has enabled me to carry on living my life. And I apologise if, Andrew R.T. Davies, I sometimes make you uncomfortable, but then again, you wouldn't expect anything different.
Let me say this: we have a responsibility in this place to do more than to make speeches, and to do more than extend goodwill and good wishes to people across this country. We have a responsibility to put in place the structures that will enable people to survive these experiences. I hope that Members across the Chamber will support the private Member legislation that I will be putting forward again this week. Members were kind enough to support the legislative proposal I made in the last Senedd to provide a legal, statutory responsibility on Welsh Ministers to ensure that defibrillators are available in communities up and down the country, and that people have the training available to use those defibrillators and to provide CPR until a defibrillator can be used. Because it is not just the location of the defibrillator that matters, it is the maintenance of that defibrillator, it is ensuring that that defibrillator is available for use when it is needed. I had a cardiac arrest at 7 o'clock on a Friday evening. You cannot rely on people to have a cardiac arrest in working hours in a convenient location. We already stipulate and demand health and safety legislation throughout our society, from fire safety through to all other means of maintaining and ensuring that life is protected. This is something that we should be mandating as well.
I'll say this in closing. I'm grateful to the Conservatives, as I've already said, and grateful for the kind words, and I don't wish to spend too much time simply talking about my own experience, but words matter. Words certainly do matter, but what matters more than words is action. We will have the opportunity in this Senedd to legislate to provide for a statutory framework to enable people across Wales to know that they have this life-saving equipment available in communities up and down the country. We will build on the work that Suzy Davies led in the last Senedd to ensure that the training is available. And we can't simply rely on schools to deliver that; we have to go to workplaces and communities to deliver that as well. Then we have to ensure that there is a chain of survival in place that enables—

Can the Member conclude now, please?

Alun Davies AC: —us not just to save life, but to actually invest in the future of life as well. I hope that Members across the Chamber will come together and vote for this this afternoon, and will support the private legislation that I hope to put forward in this Senedd, to make all our hopes a reality. Thank you.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: There are 2,000 out-of-hospital cardiac arrests in Wales annually. Immediate CPR and defibrillation can more than double the chances of survival. We are all in agreement that a network of defibrillators will save lives. I hope that you will join with me, though, in condemning whoever was responsible very recently for attacking and damaging a community-funded, newly installed automated external defibrillator in West Shore, Llandudno. The utter mindlessness of this defacement goes to show that awareness of the importance of AEDs and CPR needs to improve vastly.
Of course, I endorse the comments that have been made, and the huge debt of gratitude that we owe to our former colleague Suzy Davies, who campaigned tirelessly to see Wales join England and Scotland in making the teaching of life-saving skills a requirement of the new school curriculum. Teaching life-saving skills in schools will help address the fact that as many as three quarters of people surveyed by the British Heart Foundation would not feel confident enough to act if they saw somebody having a cardiac arrest.However, whilst we expect the guidance on the health and well-being area of learning and experience to be amended to state that learners should learn life-saving skills and first aid, why not, Minister, go a step further by stating that defibrillator training is mandatory too?
Throughout the pandemic, I have been taking steps to help, educate and protect the public. I have backed the Awyr Las Keep the Beats campaign, which encourages residents of all ages to practice CPR in the safety of their own home by using common household items such as balls, cushions and teddy bears. My constituency team have undertaken a CPR and defibrillator training course with St John Ambulance, so I thank St John Ambulance for that, ensuring that a full and proper knowledge of life-saving procedures is rooted right in my constituency in the beating heart of Llandudno. I would certainly encourage other Members to do the same with their office teams, so that we boost the number of people able and ready to respond in the event of an OHCA.
British Heart Foundation Cymru have estimated that there could be hundreds or even thousands of defibrillators in communities across Wales that never get used, because emergency services simply don't know where they are. To address this, the BHF is launching 'The Circuit', with the Association of Ambulance Chief Executives, St John Ambulance and Resuscitation Council UK. Bearing in mind that you are committed to a further £500,000 to further increase the number of defibrillators, I wonder if you could make it a condition of this funding that AEDs be registered on this circuit.
NHS Wales and Welsh Government have previously acknowledged that deprived communities are more likely to suffer from cardiovascular diseases and OHCA, and are less likely to survive than people from more affluent areas.The out-of-hospital cardiac arrest plan of June 2017 stated that work should be undertaken to ensure the public are not disadvantaged due to geography or social challenges. Many of us travel the length of Wales on a weekly basis, and I can safely say that I have only spotted one AED, beside the A5 in Padog, Ysbyty Ifan. That is clear evidence of geographic disadvantage. Communities with life-saving equipment should have bold signs informing the public of their presence. They should be as important as brown tourist signs. So, will you liaise with the Deputy Minister for Climate Change to deliver AED road signs?
Alongside introducing signs, I support the calls for grant funding to be made available to enable community halls, sports grounds and independent shops to buy and install a defibrillator. Personally, I would go a step further and propose that they be made available at each school in Wales. That, Minister, could be one of the major shocks that Wales needs to move a step closer to becoming a true life-saving nation. Thank you. Diolch.

Heledd Fychan AS: I would hope that there will be no disagreement today across the Chamber on this very important issue, and I will not repeat very valid points made. I echo Janet's calls in terms of that register. I think that is crucial. When you Google at the moment some areas in South Wales Central, I know of some defibs that exist but you cannot find them anywhere. Making sure that everybody is aware of those locations, especially on a local level, is crucially important, because you might rush to Google, but if you can't even find it there, I then think we have a major problem, especially when the emergency services aren't either aware.
I just wanted to raise as part of this debate today one thing that was raised with me last week in relation to current defibrillators within South Wales Central, and the issue that some are attached to banks and that those branches have now closed. Similarly, some are attached to some offices in town centres, also which have been closed either during COVID as people work from home, or have now closed permanently as people make the shift to work from home. Therefore, if I may return to the point in terms of registering these so that they can be maintained and so on, because the worst thing that could happen is for someone to reach that defib and that it's not working either. So, it's one thing to invest, but we must have that long-term plan, because often the knowledge about these defibs is in someone's head—someone who's passionate, who's been fundraising in the community around this—and if we are to maintain that network, it is about ensuring that they are maintained, that they're useable, also that the visibility is there. So, it's really a plea for us all to work together to ensure that these are in every community, that they should be in every sports club and so on, and I think Janet's suggestion in terms of each school is also a very valid point, although those can, of course, be very far from communities and not be as accessible as some of our town centres. Therefore, I hope we could all work together to ensure that we do address this so that we are able to save as many lives as possible in this act. Thank you.

Altaf Hussain AS: I'm grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this debate. The statistics are clearly worrying, and the survival rates of out-of-hospital cardiac arrest should be enough, on their own, to get us to act. There are a few challenges, however. Firstly, I do not believe that our nation is working quickly enough to build more capacity into our network of defibrillators. During the summer recess, I visited a community pharmacy and was shocked at the slow progress in rolling out a sufficient supply of defibrillators throughout the brilliant local pharmacies. In supporting the call for funding to be made available to venues throughout Wales to provide a network of defibrillators, I want the Government to commit to ensuring that every community pharmacy has access to support, as a key and essential part of our health service. Community pharmacies contain a number of staff with the skills to respond to the needs of the local population. Why not make better use of community pharmacies, which are a key part of our towns and villages, and professionals who come into contact with many people on a daily basis? Could the Minister today confirm how many community pharmacies have defibrillators today, compared to two or three years ago?
Secondly, according to the British Heart Foundation, less than 5 per cent of out-of-hospital cardiac arrests receive bystander defibrillation, and tens of thousands of defibrillators are currently not known by the ambulance services because they are not registered. Clearly, knowing a defibrillator's location can be the difference between life and death. Whilst we need to address the overall number of defibrillators, we also need to ensure that every unit is registered to allow the emergency services to locate them, and perhaps one way to find a defibrillator once it is activated by a member of the public would be similar to the AA phones on motorways, which give the exact location. Thirdly, the Resuscitation Council UK makes a strong case for an improvement in information and advice to people to build confidence amongst the population to use a defibrillator in an emergency. This is true in the delivery of CPR in the absence of a defibrillator too, and more challenging because of the direct action required on the part of the individual to administer the routine. I would also ask the Government to review its own out-of-hospital cardiac arrest plan, published in 2017. It clearly states that one of the plan's key outcomes is that defibrillators are,
'readily available and accessible to the public.'
It also sets out the goal that the public,
'are aware defibrillators are easy to use and can do no harm'.
That's written in this. I would ask the Minister, if we had any benchmarking that applied to the 2017 plan being written, and where we are now in securing the improvement to have the ability and accessibility. The plan is sensible and the intentions are clear, but the chapter on the implementation is weak on explaining what success would look like. It says,
'Whilst considerable work on some elements of the pathway have been taken forward, focus and pace is now required to develop the detail across the whole plan and embed its implementation across Wales.'
A report published by the Welsh Government in 2018 looked at public knowledge, attitude and behaviour towards CPR and defibrillators. The survey concluded that the proportion trained to use a defibrillator was much lower than in CPR, with only 23 per cent of all respondents reporting that they had undergone training. Although over 50 per cent of people said that they would like to receive some training. In the use of defibrillators, the level of confidence was lower than for those administering CPR, with only 38 per cent of respondents saying that they would be confident. Confidence levels were higher among those trained in CPR or in how to use defibrillators at 55 per cent and 88 per cent respectively.
Worryingly, however, was the proportion of respondents—that's 55 per cent—who did not know the location of their nearest defibrillator. Even among those who were defibrillator trained, 35 per cent reported that they did not know the location of their nearest defibrillators—

Will the Member conclude now, please?

Altaf Hussain AS: These figures might have changed in the past three years, although they show the scale of some of the challenge, even if we had the right number of defibrillators in place. I hope that the Minister will back the motion this afternoon. Thank you.

Jack Sargeant AC: The leader of the opposition spoke about consensus at the start of this debate and I agree with him: we do need to find consensus. You won't hear me say this often, but I thank the Welsh Conservatives for bringing this debate forward today—[Laughter.]
But, Deputy Llywydd, I recently met with Mark King from the Oliver King Foundation, who are campaigning for a life-saving defibrillator in every single school across the United Kingdom. The foundation was set up in January of 2012, following the tragic death of Mark's son, 12-year-old Oliver King. Oliver died from sudden arrhythmic death syndrome—a hidden heart condition that kills 12 young people every week. Now, like many others across the Chamber, my meeting with Mark and the foundation got me thinking about the schools in my own community, so my office contacted the schools in Alun and Deeside, and they found that 23 schools did have a defibrillator, but 10 did not. Many of those 10 got back in touch with my office to ask how can they go about getting one and can they get one funded and they wanted advice on how to do that. So, I will be putting them in touch with the Oliver King Foundation, but I would also ask that the Welsh Government and local government colleagues across Wales consider mapping this out properly and help schools to get the life-saving equipment they so much need.
Furthermore, Deputy Llywydd, friends of mine recently made me aware of an elderly family member who fell ill in the early hours of the morning. Upon phoning 999, they were instructed to go to the nearest available defibrillator at the local supermarket, but unfortunately, the supermarket was shut and the defibrillator was locked inside. My friend was unable to access that.As we've heard from Members across all benches here today, it is vital that defibrillators are in a location that means that they're accessible 24 hours a day. Now, I have written to Morrisons in Connah's Quay in my own constituency asking them to facilitate this sensible move, and I would like other stores across my constituency and across Wales and the UK to do the same. So, I would urge the Minister and the Welsh Government to pursue this issue across Wales.
To sum up, Deputy Presiding Officer, because I am very grateful to you for letting me speak in this debate today, we all understand the difference between a defibrillator and what that can make in terms of life-saving or not, but training in using them and basic CPR training is also key to saving lives. And as we've heard this afternoon, nobody knows that better than my good friend Alun Davies, so I would like to pay tribute to those people who helped my good friend Alun Daviesin his time of need, because without them, he wouldn't be here with me, disagreeing with the Welsh Conservatives, as we so much like to do. But not today: we do agree, and thank you so much for the debate. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr iawn. I'd like to thank Members for the thoughtful contributions that they have made today, and in particular, thank Darren Millar and Gareth for introducing this really important issue. Genuinely, there is consensus within this Chamber that this is a really important matter, and certainly there is cross-party support for this. I think that we are all united in the need to do more in this space.
As a Government, we share a commitment to improving people's chances of surviving an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest. My predecessor, as some of you have noted, launched the out-of-hospital cardiac arrest plan for Wales in 2017, with the aim of tackling the very poor outcomes that we have in Wales associated with people having cardiac arrests in the community. Recently, as Gareth mentioned, Members will recall that I reaffirmed aspects of that plan by allocating additional funding, about which I will just say more in a bit. 
As we have already heard from so many Members today, the fact is that a patient's chance of surviving an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest decreases by an estimated 10 per cent with every passing minute. We've heard lots of examples of that, and we have our very own example here, Alun, who—. I was very shocked when I saw the figure—that actually only 3 per cent would have managed that kind of situation and come through it. So, we are all really so grateful to have you here, Alun, and it really does underline the importance of the need for one of these defibrillators to be accessible.
So, survival rates are low, but there is a potential for many more lives to be saved, as has been demonstrated by the number of countries that have been taking active steps to improve each stage of what they call this chain of survival. This is the reason why we have got this plan, and that concerted action is being taken.
So, I fully support calls for more defibrillators, but I think that it's important for people to understand that making progress in this area is complex, and requires a number of things to be brought together—many of which have been touched upon by Members in this Chamber today.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I'm grateful to hear the Minister say that she would be pleased to see more defibrillators in Wales. You are the Minister. Will you set a target for the number of defibrillators that might be in existence across Wales by the end of this five-year Assembly term? At least then, if we have got a target, we have got something to aim for, rather than the warm words—and the sincere words, I take it—that the Minister has put on the record today. We need to know what sort of numbers we are talking about here.

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, I'm certainly happy to take a look at that. I think that the fact that we have put considerable additional resources in over this summer, I hope, will go some way towards reaching a target. I'm happy to look at a target because I do think that it's important that people keep our feet to the fire in this area. So, I am happy to look at that.
What's interesting is that, actually, there are areas where we are actually further ahead than they are in England, for example. I have been very taken by the campaign that Jack Sargeant mentioned, by Mark King, for example, who has been an incredible campaigner, trying to get people to introduce these into every school in the United Kingdom, in memory of his son, Oliver, who so tragically died. We have, actually, already offered every secondary school in Wales a defibrillator. That's already happened in Wales, so we are further ahead in some areas.
As I say, it's a complicated area. We have got to think about the skills issue, which so many people have touched upon and as Suzy Davies advocated so readily when she was here. On top of that, I think that it's really important that we understand that they have got to be maintained; otherwise, they are simply not worth having. So, I would join with Janet Finch-Saunders in condemning those who vandalise this life-saving equipment, wherever it happens in Wales. That's why we have established the Save a Life Cymru partnership, in January 2019, to bring together all of these different pieces of the jigsaw, in relation to encouraging public participation in taking action when faced with an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest. And Save a Life Cymru works with a very large number of organisations in this space, as well as mounting a comprehensive 'touch someone's life' communications campaign to encourage people to come forward, as so many of you have talked about. Some of you are making that active offer in your own communities.
The number of defibrillators is growing all the time. There are currently 5,423 public-access defibrillators that have been registered with the Welsh ambulance service trust and the circuit, and I'd just like to say something about that circuit, because Janet Finch-Saunders suggested perhaps that we should make this funding conditional on the fact that they need to register. So, you’re absolutely right—there's probably a lot more, but, if people don’t know where they are, that's not much good. So, I’m very happy to make that funding conditional on the fact that they have to register their whereabouts with the circuit.

Eluned Morgan AC: We need to have designated carers for defibrillators—people who can look after them to ensure that they work properly. At the moment, only a little under 50 per cent of defibrillators have been registered and have maintenance people in place to ensure that the batteries and pads are regularly tested. So, it is a complex scenario—there's no point simply installing these machines. Recently, I announced £2.5 million in addition for that partnership with Save a Life Wales to raise awareness of CPR and defibrillators and to improve the use of these techniques. Today, I’d like to announce that we will take a step further and allocate £0.5 million in addition to secure more defibrillators for communities across Wales, and that is why we have put forward the amendment to the motion today.
I have asked my officials to work with Save a Life Wales on arrangements for the use of this funding. On 16 October we celebrate Heart Regeneration Day and Save a Life Wales, along with its partners across Wales, will encourage each and every one of us to participate in events. There will also be the Shoctober event from the Welsh ambulance service, and that will be promoted throughout October. This will raise awareness of the appropriate use of the 999 service and of hands-only CPR for primary school pupils. So, we will be continuing with that legacy that was so important to Suzy Davies.
I know that the public in Wales wants to play its part. Research has shown that public attitudes are positive and that people are eager to have training opportunities, but confidence in performing CPR or using defibrillators in Wales is low, and this is something we can change. So, I do hope that these efforts that I have outlined today will start to tackle issues such as public confidence, and that will improve outcomes for those suffering cardiac arrest out of hospital.
I would like to pay tribute to all of the organisations, including third sector organisations, who work particularly hard across Wales to improve the use of CPR and defibrillators. Every second counts when one suffers cardiac arrest, and each and every one of us can help to raise awareness of the importance of CPR and defibrillators. Thank you.

I call on Samuel Kurtz to reply to the debate.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to all Members, and the Minister, that have contributed to this afternoon's debate. After the horrendous scenes witnessed on the international television during last June's Denmark versus Finland match during the Euros, I, like so many others, was moved to work with Members from across the Chamber to champion the need for universal defibrillator access, especially on our sports fields, in our community halls, and along our high streets, and I thank all those Members who signed my statement of opinion before recess on this matter.
And whilst I'm incredibly pleased to see that colleagues of all colours wish to passionately debate this motion, during the time since we've started this session this afternoon until the close of business later today, it is estimated that 14 individuals will have suffered from an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest in the United Kingdom. For every minute that goes by without the application of CPR and defibrillation, their chance of survival will reduce by up to 10 per cent. That's why this afternoon's motion is so very important. Here on these benches, the Welsh Conservatives have worked with the Government to ensure that CPR is taught in schools and communities right across Wales. And I echo the warm words of Members here who've championed the work of former Member Suzy Davies on this. However, now marks the perfect opportunity for the Welsh Government to be ambitious, to build upon the success and take a further step. As we've heard this afternoon, it's simply this: the closer an individual is to a defibrillator, the greater their chance of survival becomes.
Over the last few years, we've seen communities across Wales step up to the plate by fundraising and organising the instalment of publicly accessed defibrillators. The Member for the Vale of Clwyd rightly thanked charities for the role they have played in distributing life-saving kit to communities in his constituency, and, as the Member from Blaenau Gwent rightly pointed out, this shouldn't fall on the shoulders of charities alone. Welsh Government must step up and offer the necessary support, and, while the £0.5 million of extra funding is welcomed, Minister, you highlight the complexities of bringing stakeholders together; I would argue that it is the role of Welsh Government to play in bringing those stakeholders together to bring about the necessary change. And as the Member for the Vale of Clwyd rightly pointed out, quick access to a defib will take pressure off the Welsh ambulance service, who say there are 4,100 publicly accessible defibrillators spread across the country. However, the British Heart Foundation are reporting that there are likely to be hundreds or even thousands of life-saving defibrillators in communities across Wales that have yet to be registered with the ambulance service. To put it simply, if the Welsh ambulance service don't know they exist, then nor do the general public—a point raised eloquently by the Members for Ynys Môn, Aberconwy, and South Wales Central earlier on—and the statistics reflect this.
It is estimated that publicly accessed defibrillators are used in less than 10 per cent of out-of-hospital cardiac arrests. And we've heard today the story of the Member from Blaenau Gwent—and not to inflate his ego any further, we are very grateful to ensure that he is still here with us, contributing to Welsh politics. But he is absolutely right to raise the point that it's not the stories of those who survive we should listen to, but the harrowing stories of those who have not survived, including the rugby player Alex Evans, the cricketer Maqsood Anwar, who both sadly lost their lives earlier this year due to not having access to a defibrillator. And I'm sure all of us in our constituencies have heard of other stories of those who have sadly lost their lives, and that's why I believe there is such cross-party consensus here on this topic today.
And we've heard clearly of the situation in Wales and repeatedly that this isn't about politics, as the Member from Ynys Môn rightly pointed out; this is about genuine change that can save lives. And I know politicians are often bandied around as not having much common sense, but it seems to me that common sense should prevail in this instance, that this should be a matter that the Welsh Government take forward with gusto to ensure that this life-saving equipment is available to all who may, sadly, need it at any one time. Therefore, I hope that Members can support our motion today to bring about this necessary change. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Object. I will defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

6. Plaid Cymru Debate: Universal Credit

The following amendments have been selected: amendments 1, 2, 4 and 5 in the name of Darren Millar, and amendment 3 in the name of Lesley Griffiths. If amendment 3 is agreed, amendments 4 and 5 will be deselected.

The next item is the Plaid Cymru debate on universal credit. I call on Sioned Williams to move the motion.

Motion NDM7772 Siân Gwenllian
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Opposes the UK Government's proposal to scrap the £20 uplift in universal credit, which has been a vital helpline for families in Wales during the pandemic.
2. Recognises that a higher proportion of families in Wales will be affected by the cut to universal credit than the UK average according to the Bevan Foundation.
3. Calls on the Welsh Government to:
a) pursue the devolution of welfare in order to tackle poverty in Wales.
b) publish a robust and meaningful plan to tackle poverty that contains clear performance targets and indications to measure progress.
c) maintain flexibility around the discretionary assistance fund in order to mitigate the impact of any universal credit reduction on people in Wales.

Motion moved.

Sioned Williams MS: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm pleased to have the opportunity to open this important debate on behalf of Plaid Cymru, and I'd like to ask my fellow Members to seriously consider voting in favour of our motion this afternoon.
In responding to Adam Price's question here yesterday, we heard the First Minister talking about people's right in Wales to be treated in a way that is fair and compassionate. For those of us who sit in the Senedd, we disagree on many things, but I hope, and I believe, that we are agreed that there is a fundamental principle that unites us, namely that the people of Wales deserve to live with dignity, with support when it is needed, with sufficient funds to support them. I urge you to keep this principle above everything else and keep it in mind during today's debate, above your party political allegiance, and that we as a Senedd show that we can agree on a motion that would announce this clearly and ambiguously for the people of Wales. Universal credit is supposed to support those on the lowest incomes, who are out of work or who can't work. The universal credit payment was uplifted by £20 by the UK Government in response to the COVID crisis, and despite that increase being extended once, it will be cut now at the beginning of October. That, as well as the cut to working tax credit, will create a dangerous pressure on families in Wales. We must oppose this decision, this unwise decision.

Sioned Williams MS: The duty of this Senedd and of this Government, as I stated at the beginning, is to best serve the interests of the people of Wales. The end of the universal credit uplift will be disastrous for people all across the United Kingdom, but families in Wales will be hit harder, and a significantly higher proportion of families with children in Wales will be affected than some other areas. Anti-poverty and social justice campaigners and we as a party have warned of a perfect storm. The furlough scheme ends just a week before the cut takes effect. Living costs are forecast to rise over the coming months, meaning that vulnerable families will see their incomes fall just as the cost of living increases. And household debt is rocketing, according to a new report by the Bevan Foundation published just today.
The statistics speak for themselves. In total, over 275,000 families claim universal credit or working tax credits in Wales—more than one in five of all families. The majority of families claiming these benefits are families with children, and 42 per cent of all families with children claim one of these benefits. Fourteen per cent of all families without children claim universal credit or working tax credits. Geographically speaking, more than a quarter of families with children will be affected in every Welsh constituency; in some constituencies, half of families with children will be affected by this cut in the uplift.
The Conservative Westminster Government's Secretary of State for Work and Pensions justified the reduction on the grounds that it would help get people back into work. However, the Wales Trades Union Congress suggests that more than a third of those hit in Wales will be working families, many of which include key workers. Let that sink in. The decision on universal credit, of course, rests in the hands of Westminster, but we in Wales must act, as our people are plunged into deeper poverty and debt, and hundreds of millions of pounds are taken out of our local economies as a result.
The Welsh Government needs to push for the devolution of powers over welfare to Wales—[Interruption.]—to do more to mitigate the worst effects of the universal credit cut—. No, I won't give way. Yesterday, in answer to Adam Price's question on this matter, the First Minister suggested he would wait for the Welsh Affairs Committee to report, following its current inquiry into the benefits system in Wales and the devolution of welfare. I have been a Member of this Senedd for only four months, and I've already heard too many times, 'Let's wait and see. We're looking at it'.
When crisis befalls us, we must act. If we've learnt anything from the last months, it is surely that, and there is no denying, given the statistics I have shared, that this is a crisis of awful proportions, which, this time, we know is coming. To really get to grips with poverty, an improved strategic approach is needed. Today, we are calling on the Welsh Government to publish a robust and meaningful plan to tackle poverty that contains clear performance targets and indications to measure progress. Having discussed with a range of groups working in the field of social justice, it's clear to me that we need better focused and more co-ordinated action by Welsh Government to end the worst persistent effects of poverty. There is talk of good intentions, but also of a frustrating duplication of initiatives and a lack of clear direction, because, with no clear strategy and no measurable targets, the result can sometimes an ineffective, scattergun approach, which is sometimes also an unfair and unjust postcode lottery.

Sioned Williams MS: One way that the Welsh Government could mitigate the effects of the universal credit cut is to maintain the flexibility of the discretionary assistance fund—the national fund that provides small funding grants for vital living costs and support for one to live independently. The scheme was changed at the beginning of the pandemic to enable more people to claim financial assistance if they faced exceptional hardship as a result of lockdowns, self-isolation, or lost income as a result of other restrictions imposed.
The number of grants awarded through the DAF has decreased dramatically recently because of the Welsh Government's decision to get rid of the flexibility that made it easier for people to receive that support. The DAF is a vital source of support for thousands of families, and considering the impact of the cut to universal credit and the entire context that I have outlined this afternoon, we encourage the Welsh Government to continue with that additional flexibility to access the fund beyond the end of September, and we ask Members from all parties to support that call.
I referred earlier to the fact that I am a new Member of this Senedd. The most important thing that I have learned to date is that hearing the voice of the people who are impacted by policy is vital, and ignoring their experience is unforgivable. The numerous reports that have been published on the disastrous impact of the cut to universal credit quote a number of people who will have to make such impossible decisions. In one by Save the Children Cymru, Stacey, a mother from Newport, said that the cut is going to impact her ability to pay her debts, that she is concerned how, as the winter approaches, she'll have to cut down on food to pay for heating, and we know that energy prices are increasing. Her daughter has just started gymnastics lessons. They are £5 a go, and she doesn't know whether she'll be able to continue with those. I call upon all of you to support our motion and, by doing so, support families such as Stacey's. Thank you.

Before I move on, can I remind Members that we are able to intervene today, and there is the right to intervene, but there's also the right of the individual Member who is speaking to either accept or reject the intervention, and no criticism of that Member should be made as to making that decision?

I have selected the five amendments to the motion. If amendment 3 is agreed, amendments 4 and 5 will be deselected. I call on Mark Isherwood to move amendments 1, 2, 4 and 5 in the name of Darren Millar.

Amendment 1—Darren Millar
Delete point 1 and replace with:
Welcomes the UK Government's decision to provide an extra £20 per week in universal credit to support those on low incomes during the coronavirus pandemic and recognises that this temporary measure has already been extended from 12 to 18 months.

Amendment 2—Darren Millar
Delete point 2 and replace with:
Regrets that poverty levels in Wales are higher than in other parts of the UK due to the failure of successive Welsh Governments.

Amendment 4—Darren Millar
Delete sub-point 3 a and replace with:
a. work with the UK Government to tackle poverty in Wales, by maximising the opportunities presented by funding opportunities and regional growth deals across Wales;

Amendment 5—Darren Millar
Delete everything after 'fund' in sub-point 3(c).

Amendments 1, 2, 4 and 5 moved.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch. Well, I move amendments 1, 2, 4 and 5. The agility and flexibility of the universal credit system allowed a temporary uplift to be implemented at the start of the pandemic, in extraordinary times. In April 2020, as a one-year response to the COVID-19 pandemic, the universal credit standard allowance received a temporary uplift of £20 a week. In his March 2021 budget, the UK Chancellor announced an extension of this temporary uplift for a further six months. As with all the extra support provided by the UK Government in response to COVID-19, this was always time limited, although the core benefit remained protected. This extension plus a one-off payment of £500 to working tax credit claimants, also announced, were expected to cost £3 billion. The UK Chancellor also announced that universal credit advances would not need to be repaid for 24 months from April 2021—a 12-month extension—that the maximum universal credit reduction rate would fall to 25 per cent come April 2021, and that the higher surplus earnings threshold for universal credit would remain at £2,500 until April 2022.
As we faced one of the greatest economic and social challenges in our history, the UK Government delivered a £407 billion support package, including a £9 billion injection into our welfare system. But now, as we move to the next phase of our recovery, it is right to prioritise supporting more people in work and to progress in work. This builds on the 1.7 per cent increase in the working age benefits that came into effect in April 2020, benefiting around 2.5 million households, delivering one of the most comprehensive economic responses in the world during the pandemic.
The support for families, jobs and businesses provided by the UK Government over this year and last includes protecting around 14 million jobs through the furlough and self-employed schemes, and a £30 billion plan for jobs, boosting the national living wage by 2.2 per cent from April 2021, and an additional £740 million to the Welsh Government for 2021-22 through the Barnett formula, plus a further £1.4 billion the devolved Governments will receive outside the Barnett formula.With UK job vacancies reaching 1 million and payrolls rebounding to pre-pandemic levels, extending the uplift even by a further 12 months would be premature and cost the equivalent of adding 1p on the basic rate of income tax—

Joyce Watson AC: Will you take an intervention?

Mark Isherwood AC: —in addition to a 3p increase on fuel duty.

Mark, will you take an intervention?

Mark Isherwood AC: Sorry, I missed that. Yes, certainly, Joyce.

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you for taking the intervention. Do you agree that the UK Government have rightly identified that the amount of money that people are receiving on universal credit isn't sufficient, and that is why they actually increased it by £20 a week, so that those people could just survive? Do you also agree, if you agree with that, that it is a really wrong move and a bad move to remove it now when people need it the most?

Mark Isherwood AC: What I agree with is that it was a temporary uplift introduced in response to COVID-19 and extended beyond the original promised date.
Today, welfare spending will still be £241 billion in 2021-22, with over £111 billion on working age welfare, or 4.9 per cent of GDP. Universal credit provides a safety net, but is not designed to trap people in welfare. Unfortunately, however, as our amendment 2 states, poverty levels in Wales are higher than in other parts of the UK due to the failure of successive Welsh Governments, responsible for measures to promote prosperity and tackle poverty in Wales for over 22 years.
As the Joseph Rowntree Foundation reported last year, Wales has retained the highest poverty rate of all the UK nations throughout devolution since 1999, and has the lowest GVA prosperity levels of any UK nation. Further, their 'Poverty in Wales 2020' report last November found that Wales still has lower pay for people in every sector than the rest of the UK and that, even before coronavirus, almost a quarter of people in Wales were in poverty, living precarious and insecure lives.And as the Bevan Foundation also stated, poverty was a significant problem in Wales long before the arrival of COVID-19. This is despite the billions received and spent by successive Welsh Governments, which was supposed to tackle the prosperity gap.
By June this year, the Welsh Government had received an additional £8.6 billion from the UK Government since the start of the pandemic. As Audit Wales states, it allocated £5.1 billion to the COVID-19 response in 2020-21, and the Welsh Government has at least an additional £2.6 billion available in 2021-22. That report was published this week. This money needs to be invested in building back better, lifting people out of poverty, preventing them from spending—

Can the Member come to a conclusion now, please?

Mark Isherwood AC: Pardon?

Can you come to a conclusion now?

Mark Isherwood AC: —a life dependent on welfare, whilst maintaining flexibility around the discretionary assistance fund. Diolch.

I call on the Minister for Social Justice to formally move amendment 3, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Amendment 3—Lesley Griffiths
Delete point 3 and replace with:
3. Notes the income maximisation work done by the Welsh Government to support families on low incomes
4. Urges the Welsh Government to:
a) continue to explore the case for the devolution of the administration of welfare; and
b) maintain the current flexibility around the discretionary assistance fund to mitigate the impact of any universal credit reduction and the ending of furlough on people in Wales.

Amendment 3moved.

Jane Hutt AC: Formally.

Thank you. Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you very much. I was very grateful that all members of the Equality and Social Justice Committee supported the request for me to sign a joint letter to Thérèse Coffey as Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, which went from all the Chairs of the committees responsible for social justice in the four Parliaments of the UK. And I'm aware that a similar joint letter has been sent by the Minister for Social Justice with her counterparts from the other devolved Governments.
What is most extraordinary about this cruel cut is it is opposed by no less than six former Conservative Secretaries of State for Work and Pensions. So, I think it's a very uncomfortable task for Members of the Conservative Party on the benches opposite to be arguing that this is a credible idea. Indeed, a majority of Conservative voters, according to a recent poll, are opposed to this cut because they seem to fully understand, in a way that Rishi Sunak does not, that this is coming at the time of a perfect storm. Not only is it the time when the furlough support is being withdrawn, but it is also in the week, this week, when we have seen a massive increase in the energy prices, and a hike in what is the cap that can be paid. There's a particularly massive hike in the amount of money that can be charged to people who are paying on the meter for their electricity and gas, who are themselves the very poorest people, because that is why they are having to have a more expensive access to electricity prices. In addition to that, this week, we have seen the impact of COVID on families who need to buy childcare. Far too many parents are having to simply work in order to pay for childcare in order to keep their job, and we can see how this is a perfect storm.
It seems to me a completely impossible idea that it is being argued by the Government that this was a temporary measure and we're now going back to business as usual, because there is no such thing as business as usual: we are still in a pandemic and people are still in precarious work, and meanwhile, prices are going up for a combination of reasons, including the legacy of leaving the European Union and the impact it's having on food supplies and food prices. It seems to me unbelievably difficult to in any way justify this cut at this particular time after 10 years of having failed to put up benefit rises in line with prices, and with wages. So, the very poorest people, including the poorest people in work, are going to have to pay for other people to have to pay fewer taxes. And it is an incredible situation.
So, I think what we have to debate now is what we can actually do about this ourselves, because we cannot influence Rishi Sunak; we do not know whether there'll be a last-minute change of heart, but it seems unlikely, given that they've now marked 1 October as the date on which this cut will come in, and have actually written to recipients to tell them that. So, I think the people who will be hit hardest will have to end up having to choose whether they eat or heat, or they will have to choose whether to eat and heat but not pay other bills like council tax bills, which in turn will impact on local authorities who will be unable to pick up the revenue that they can normally expect to get from council tax. So, it is a complete perfect storm and very, very difficult to see how we can mitigate the impact of this very cruel cut.

Delyth Jewell AC: What's £20 a week? It's not that much, surely? That's what some of the billionaires in Westminster have implied, but £20 adds up to £1,040 a year: a huge amount for families for whom the pandemic is far from over. And this cut, as we've heard, will happen a week after the furlough scheme is likely to end and at a time when living costs are set to rise. We've heard the term a number of times already, 'a perfect storm', well, it's a perfect storm when the roof has blown off. And Dirprwy Lywydd, I'm using terms like this, 'pandemic', 'furlough': they should be anchor points that remind us that we are not living in normal times; we're living in a time of global crisis and that global crisis has every day catastrophic effects on people living in poverty—'catastrophic' in its true sense: sudden changes, things being turned upside down.
And in the midst of this crisis, when all the pieces of people's lives are being held in this precarious balance, a vital piece is taken away, an uplift that was meant to keep people in balance gets knocked out, and like a Jenga tower, like a pack of cards, it can all come tumbling down, because that is the lie, isn't it, at the heart of our benefit system. It's not about ending poverty; it's about keeping things in an impossible balance: a system that pushes families into debt before they get their first payment, ensuring they're behind before they start, forcing them to barely get by, forever struggle, never feel comfortable or at ease, holding up a house of paper and cards.
More than 61,000 families in south-east Wales will be affected by this cut. In Merthyr, Torfaen and Newport East, more than a quarter of all families will be affected. Sixty-one thousand families. Let's not dismiss that statistic—61,290 families, to be precise, will lose money that is helping them to live, and anyone who says that people receiving universal credit can afford to lose this money must have a fundamental misunderstanding of how poverty works. Twenty pounds a week can be the difference that means that children have full bellies, that means that families can keep the heating on, but it also means that children can have books, pocket money, and that they're able to go on school trips. Because those things shouldn't be luxuries, they shouldn't just be for the well-off children; they should be normal. The cut will be self-defeating. At a time when Governments want to kick start our economy, taking £286 million from the pockets of people who would spend it locally is economically futile at best. It is a benefit cut imposed on Wales without any mandate.
The UK benefits system we have is far from universal in its benefit. It is not a credit to our society; it isolates people, it sets them apart and seeks to degrade them. The impact of this cut, £20 a week, will be measured in cortisol and calamity. The mental health impact of poverty, of sudden shocks to incomes, of insecurity and panic, are well documented. Relationships will be strained, debts and loans will rise and anxiety will be felt every day by those families—those thousands of families that will be going through life with that little bit more difficulty, going without those few things more, those vital things that none of us would ever deprive ourselves of. Not a house of cards anymore, but a glass that will shatter any illusion of fairness in how universal credit operates.
I'll end, Dirprwy Lywydd, with a challenge for the Welsh Government. We've had Westminster Tories in control of welfare for over a decade, and we need urgency in changing things. This cut will come into effect in less than a month. Plaid Cymru has proposed a Welsh child payment, learning from Scotland, where low-income families with children under six receive a £10-a-week payment. I understand this will soon be doubled and extended. Wouldn't now be an ideal time to introduce a similar policy in Wales? The time to help these families is now.

Jane Dodds AS: I'm very grateful to Plaid Cymru for introducing the motion today, and it's very important that we discuss this, isn't it? The coronavirus has demonstrated to all of us how important it is to have that social support. It's vital in ensuring that we succeed together, that every individual and every household succeeds. Our communities can't, and our economy can't, prosper following the coronavirus unless individuals and their families across Wales also prosper. The decision made by the Conservatives to withdraw £1 million this year from the pockets of the households that are most vulnerable not only is neglectful, but is cruel. The Conservatives should feel ashamed about the decision made by their Government.

Jane Dodds AS: Just as people begin to hope that we can move forward from the worst of the coronavirus, the UK Government is ripping support from right under the feet of people in incredibly precarious positions. The Prime Minister's claim that he wants people to live by their own efforts rather than welfare shows how out of touch he really is. Almost half of those receiving universal credit are already in work, and with many having young families, this cut will leave parents and their children behind, despite their best efforts. It will hit more than 3,500 households in Powys alone, more than 14,000 people, many of which will be households with children.
Let's be clear. This will push people into homelessness. This will force families to foodbanks. This will see people in cold houses over the winter. People will be pushed deeper into poverty, with all of the implications that has for people's health and well-being. It is shameful. And nobody in this place should be resting on their laurels. In Wales, more than 200,000 children live in poverty, around 30 per cent of our children here, a higher proportion than anywhere else in the UK. In the year to March 2021, more than 54,000 children received food parcels. That's one food parcel every 10 minutes for a whole year.
I cannot support the Conservative amendments. They fail yet again to recognise that the £20 uplift only scratches the surface of what an adequate social security system should offer our citizens. Not only that, but their amendments also fail to recognise the role that the UK Government welfare reform, particularly cuts since 2017, have played in driving child poverty. And whilst I recognise the work of the Welsh Government, families cannot survive on a steady-as-she-goes approach from Cathays Park. It's a haunting reality of modern Wales that so many children are robbed of their childhood, their freedom and their hope for the future. We must go further and faster.
I'll finish on this. We don't just need a compassionate welfare system that treats people with dignity; we need a whole rewrite of a social security system that enables people to thrive, not barely survive. So, I'll finish on this: the Government has one opportunity to get a pilot of universal basic income right. The evidence around the benefits of providing—[Interruption.]

Will the Member take an intervention?

Jane Dodds AS: No, I won't—cash payments is overwhelming, and I'd urge the First Minister to work with those of us who are trying to campaign for a universal basic income to establish a more comprehensive pilot than is currently being proposed. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Heledd Fychan AS: Jane Dodds was entirely right—cruel is the word, and I think we have to accept today that it's not the fault of people living in poverty that they are living in poverty. I think we have to accept that £20 per week hasn't resolved the issue of poverty. Seeing people smiling and laughing infuriates me when I know about the stories behind these statistics; when I get phone calls from people who are in work, and as Sioned Williams said in opening the debate, people who are key workers and can't afford to feed their children. I'm sorry, I am just infuriated in seeing people not truly understanding the poverty in our communities, and the solutions that we have to work together on, because if we don't accept that there is a problem, then how on earth are we going to resolve this? How are we going to change people's lives?
Sixty-five thousand, two hundred and thirty families will be impacted by the cut in universal credit in the region I represent, namely South Wales Central. The Bevan Foundation has estimated that large sums will be lost from local economies in constituencies in the region. The losses are as follows: in Cardiff Central, the loss will be £8.4 million, Cardiff North, £5.2 million, Cardiff South and Penarth £13.2 million, Cardiff West £10.5 million, Cynon Valley £7.6 million, Pontypridd £6.1 million, Rhondda losing £7.8 million, and the Vale of Glamorgan losing £8.6 million. The total losses therefore are £67.4 million, which is a huge sum only in South Wales Central.
My region and its constituencies has suffered economically and socially for decades. During the pandemic, Rhondda Cynon Taf suffered most deaths per capita than any other region within the UK, and it continues to suffer high rates of COVID spread. They've also experienced the worst of climate change in Wales, suffering destructive flooding. As well as this, the region suffers from poorer health than other regions in Wales. People are dying earlier. More people suffer food insecurity and are reliant on foodbanks, and child poverty levels are the worst in the UK, if not Europe. [Interruption.] Well, and the Conservatives, sorry. If you're going to challenge Government, then both Governments are as guilty as each other.
The uplift of £20 has been a saving grace for the people of South Wales Central, but wasn't a solution. It has allowed more families to afford to live, to feed their children, to clothe them, to pay for electricity, light, heat, crucial broadband connections, and has mitigated some but not all of the worst impacts of the pandemic. The Welsh Government must do everything within its power to urge the UK Government to overturn its cruel decision on universal credit. It must do everything within its devolved powers to mitigate the impact of poverty in South Wales Central and across the whole of Wales.
We need a strategy to tackle and to end poverty—a robust and considered proposal to tackle poverty that includes clear performance targets and indicators to measure progress. And, of course, there are a whole host of other policies that we can bring into power that will make a difference, including expanding eligibility for free school meals to all children in poverty, or all children in Wales, as we would like to see, and the Government must maintain the flexibility of the discretionary assistance fund to mitigate the impact of the reduction in universal credit in Wales.

Heledd Fychan AS: Time and time again, the people of South Wales Central have been let down by consecutive Labour and Conservative Governments in the UK Parliament, and by the Labour Government here in Wales. Enough is enough. We need more than empty words from both Governments. We need action. Let's take that first step today.

Sarah Murphy AS: In my constituency of Bridgend, over 6,000 households rely on universal credit, and there are 4,375 children living in homes where their parents rely on this support. There is no denying that if we cut the £20 from these household budgets every week, it will have a huge impact. It is the difference between being able to pay your bills, buy new school shoes for your children, or putting food on the table. In fact, cutting the £20 will mean that one in four people will very likely need to skip a meal, and one in five would very likely be unable to heat their homes this winter. And 40 per cent of the affected people in Bridgend are in work. They are in key jobs, like teaching assistants, nurses, supermarket workers—working, but being pushed closer to poverty.
For a nurse in Bridgend, this cruel cut will mean losing £1,159 a year. For our social workers in Bridgend, working with vulnerable children, it will mean £1,108. A teaching assistant, helping young people with their learning, could be £1,040 worse off. And Labour is clear: whether in Westminster or in the Senedd, we are opposed to this cut, which will hit hardest those who can least afford it. I am pleased that we're having this debate today, that we're able to give a voice to the people who are being ignored by the UK Government, that we're able to give a voice to the people who can't do it for themselves. I am pleased that we are making people face up—anybody who supports this, to actually face up—and look at these statistics and who it's going to be impacting across all of our constituencies. You have to look them in the face when this happens. I'm glad that we're having this debate, because Labour MPs planned to use their scheduled opposition debate on 8 September to press the UK Government to cancel the cut to universal credit. However, the UK Government pulled this just a day before it was due to take place. And what came instead? A debate and vote on Boris Johnson's national insurance hike—yet another attack on working people by the Tory UK Government.
Let me end by saying a huge 'thank you' to the millions of campaigners across the country. Even if it doesn't affect them, they have been out there and they have been raising awareness and they have been fighting this universal credit cut. My own fellow Unite the Union members, community members, were on the steps of the Senedd today, joining us in demanding that the UK Government don't look away. Do not look away from the millions of people that you are pushing further into poverty, when we are still in the middle of a global pandemic.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you very much, Deputy Llywydd, and I urge Members to reject this motion and its baseless criticisms of the UK Government. Cuts to welfare from the Labour Party, Plaid Cymru and the Lib Dems show that it's a universal approach rather than universal credit. And it's no surprise, given the news that's come out during the last 24 hours that you're all doing a deal, so it's no surprise really.
The UK Government rightly introduced—[Interruption.] No, I've only just started, Alun. The UK Government rightly introduced a temporary uplift to universal credit during the pandemic. This was always a time-limited measure. Initially put in place for 12 months, it was extended for a further half a year—six months. A measure put in place during a pandemic where thousands of people found themselves out of work. The lockdowns have been lifted and we are now focused on helping the economy bounce back from the chilling financial impacts of COVID control measures.
The UK Government borrowed vast sums of money during the pandemic to ensure that we could save jobs at the same time as we concentrated on saving lives. UK national debt is now at a staggering £2.2 trillion. Our borrowing has risen from 84 per cent of GDP in the months leading up to the pandemic to a staggering 106 per cent of GDP today. We can't afford to keep up this level of borrowing, particularly when the economy is bouncing back.
Labour market statistics for September show that not only have the number of workers on the payroll surpassed the pre-pandemic peak, but that wages are up. Office for National Statistics figures for August 2021 indicate that there are now thousands more people in work than there were at the outset of the pandemic. The stats also show that the median monthly pay increased by 6.5 per cent when compared with February 2020. Yesterday, further evidence of the economic recovery emerged as job vacancies hit a record high with more than a million jobs available.
Unemployment continues to fall. Rather than railing against the removal of temporary welfare measures, the Welsh Government and their little helpers in Plaid and the Lib Dems should focus efforts on tackling poverty by helping people into work and helping those in work to retrain. Our supply chain is nearing collapse because of a lack of HGV drivers, yet long-term unemployment remains stubbornly high in Wales—[Interruption.]

Can I remind Members to give the Member an opportunity to speak and to listen to him speak please?

Gareth Davies AS: It would be nice.

Go ahead.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Why is the Welsh Government not working with the sector to provide retraining opportunities? Work is the best way out of poverty and the Government should be doing everything possible to help and encourage people into the workforce. Our nation can't afford to continue borrowing over £5,000 every second. The UK Government are doing what any responsible Government would do by trying to balance the books. The pandemic has cost eye-watering amounts of money, but now that we're over the worst, it's time that we seek to control the cost wherever possible by ending temporary schemes. I therefore call on Members to reject this motion this afternoon. Thank you very much.

Carolyn Thomas AS: I'd like to say that universal credit has never been fit for purpose. It costs more than the previous legacy benefits to deliver because of the bureaucracy of it and helps even fewer people. I think that the proposed cut of the £20 uplift is a kick in the teeth for many of my constituents across north Wales. Forty per cent of those on universal credit are in low-paid jobs, as has previously been said—

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Would the Member take an intervention?

Carolyn Thomas AS: No I won't—and they've carried out essential work throughout the pandemic in sectors such as the NHS and social care. Rather than being thanked for this incredible job that they've done during the pandemic, they're about to be hit with £1,000 a year universal credit cut as well as a tax hike.
In-work poverty and poor working conditions should be resigned to history. Instead, this cut will only make matters worse. I don't know if any Members have tried to get a job recently and seen what's out there, the low pay—[Interruption.]—that's been driving the economy. Low-paid, really poor working conditions—[Interruption.]

Will the Member take an intervention? No.

Carolyn Thomas AS: —and terrible shifts that don't fit in with families. It's not just universal credit that's to be blamed for this either. It's the combined impact of Tory austerity policies, including the bedroom tax and the two-child policy as well. So, now you can only get funding for two children.
In Rhyl alone, 4,000 people will be impacted. This has a knock-on effect on local communities at a time when investment in our communities should be a top priority—

Gareth Davies rose—.

I think the Member has indicated that she will not take an intervention.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Give working class people money in their pockets. Give working class people money in their pockets and they will spend it because they need to spend it. Grow the economy that way. Put money in people's pockets. Rich people conserve it, put it in the banks. Money is supposed to be spent, it's supposed to be part of the economy, to keep the economy going.
The Welsh Labour Government has taken steps to tackle poverty across Wales, expanding the discretionary assistance fund, protecting free school meals and it plans for a trial of the universal basic income, which will be greatly welcomed. Diolch. Thank you.

Joyce Watson AC: It's been just an amazing insight into the other benches today. I just want to say one thing. They talked about HGV drivers and training them, well, I just want to say this to you: by the time you've trained an HGV driver, the food will be rotten in the lorry. Just a thought for you to think about, that's all, and I thought it might be useful to help you in that deliberation.
But I want to ask a few questions. We all know that removing a £20-a-week lifeline is cruel, but I want to ask a question: what did the UK Government think the people were spending that £20 a week on, that they no longer need now? Did they think that it might have been for food, for rent, for heating, for clothing for their children? I have to ask this question, because if they did think that that's what people were spending that £20 a week on, why is it that they think they don't need it now? Is it the intention of the Prime Minister, of course, to do what the Tories always do and blame the poor, yet again? And we've seen evidence over here this afternoon—for being poor. Does he recognise that key workers are receiving this very small lifeline? Those key workers that you went outside to clap, those are the people you're taking this £20 a week from. And the Tories do have a good history, of course, of removing things from people. They put the bedroom tax in so that they removed the right for people to have two bedrooms. They failed to give women their pensions on time, but claimed that they did it. They also just last week decided that the wealthy don't need to pay for healthcare, because they put the rise on national insurance. Who is paying that, I ask? But also, the healthcare that that NI rise was intended to cover had absolutely nothing to do with COVID, but had everything to do with 10 years of austerity.
So, you've brought the country to its knees, and now you want to bring people to their knees. But you won't be happy in doing that, of course, because you're going to blame those people—those very people you will be depending on to fill those shelves, once we've trained those HGV drivers, of course, and the food isn't rotten—you'll be taking the money out of their pockets. And the Resolution Foundation has said that those claiming universal credit will have to work nine hours a week to make up for the £20 shortfall. It's a pity that the work and pensions Secretary, who thought it was only two hours, hadn't read that brief first, because she clearly didn't understand that 63 pence in every pound would be reclaimed. She couldn't even do simple maths, for goodness' sake. It's an absolute insult. This is an absolute insult. And to claim that you can't afford it and to actually agree that you can't afford it is somewhat baffling. I notice that Stephen Crabb, today, has come out and said that it is a shameful thing to do. I would be very interested to know whether his colleague, Paul Davies and some of you from this bench agree with that.

I call on the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm really pleased to respond this important debate today,and I do thank Plaid Cymru for bringing it forward. In response to Sioned Williams in her opening speech, when a lifeline like universal credit is under such attack, when those who rely on it are faced with such injustice, we must unite in opposing this entirely voluntary decision by the UK Government.

Jane Hutt AC: What is clear, and has been expressed so powerfully in this debate, is that the £20 that so many people needed at the beginning of the pandemic is still needed now. Circumstances have not changed. Harms have become more entrenched. The numbers claiming universal credit, as we all know as Senedd Members, have doubled from 3 million to 6 million from the start of the pandemic. As so many people have said today, those who are affected by this cut are those who need us most, and those who have also played a key part in protecting our country from COVID-19—many key workers.
So, we have repeatedly called on the UK Government, together with Ministers in Scotland and Northern Ireland, to rethink this impending cut. They still can rethink and change to make the £20 a week increase permanent—that's what we have called for—and to extend the payment to people claiming a legacy benefit. Can I thank the members of the Equality and Social Justice Committee, chaired by Jenny Rathbone—all members backing that call, and all of the committees across the UK Government, including the Westminster select committee itself, which also backed this call to make the £20 a week increase permanent?
We asked the UK Government in our letter from the Ministers from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to show us their assessment of what impact this cut would have on poverty levels. We have had no response. We reminded the UK Government that this is the single biggest overnight cut to a social security payment since the second world war. The UK Government Ministers know what the impact will be. They have seen the assessments. They have heard the warnings from copious experts, charities and, indeed, the dissent from their own benches.
Members have set out so clearly this afternoon the very real impacts of this entirely voluntary decision. Trussell Trust report that one in four people will very likely need to skip meals. Sarah Murphy expressed this so clearly, warning from that graphic description of the impact that this could have on her people in Bridgend. That is 64,000 people in Wales—one in four. One in five will very likely be unable to afford to heat their homes this winter—61,000 people across Wales.
It will increase poverty levels across Wales, and I am sure that I'm not the only one who has met with the Wales anti-poverty commission, which told me this summer what this would mean. This was their key priority—that I should work, as Minister for Social Justice, to stop this £20 cut. Those were child poverty charities, Citizens Advice, the 'Keep the Lifeline' campaign, registered social landlords—all calling on the UK Government to protect this lifeline.
It will impact on disabled people and those with caring responsibilities. They make up 76,000 people who are registered and respected as not required to work by the DWP—the no requirement group. Also, there is this huge negative economic impact, which has been expressed so clearly today. The Bevan Foundation found that approximately £286 million would be stripped from the Welsh economy.
So, Members have drawn attention to the perfect storm. If just the £20 cut wasn't draconian enough, it's coupled with the end of furlough, the rise in fuel costs, and all living costs rising—and, of course, the recent manifesto-breaking announcement to increase national insurance, a move that their own HMRC said could lead to a breakdown of families on the breadline.
Dirprwy Lywydd, 97,000 people in Wales who receive universal credit are working, as Carolyn Thomas said, in low-paid work, and a hike in national insurance hits those just getting by. So, the warnings and evidence are clear, and thank you to Jane Dodds for stating so clearly that we need that safety net. We must ensure that Government can support and intervene for those who will suffer.
It's a stark reality that even if the £20 payment is maintained—and that's what we call for this afternoon—it will not make up for the income that our poorest households lost because of the severe cuts to their benefit payments introduced by years of welfare cuts. And Joyce Watson actually did refer to Stephen Crabb. He admitted that today—. Under his watch, he admitted he was part of the Tory team that took the decision to freeze benefits that has now, he admits, pushed more workers into poverty.
So, Deputy Llywydd, we know the key levers for tackling poverty, such as powers over tax and welfare, sit with the UK Government, but we know too that people in Wales deserve a truly robust social security system that doesn't force people into further or continuing poverty, and that is why we will also continue to explore the case for the devolution of welfare. This is, obviously, a commitment, and it was discussed yesterday, but it was also a response to the equality, local government and justice committee in the last administration.
In the meantime, we must take action now. The ending of the £20 per week—if it happens, and we must still strive to stop it—means households are heading towards a financial cliff edge. It's vital that we help, using all the levers that we have in child poverty. I'll just mention two areas: the income maximation action plan—we're putting more money into people's pockets; we've had our national welfare benefit take-up campaign, and it helped people claim £650,000 of welfare benefit income—but also the discretionary assistance fund—the fact that we boosted this by £25.4 million during the pandemic—and providing emergency support for people who have off-grid fuel experiencing financial hardship for the coldest months of the year.
So, I can confirm today that I will continue to—that the support will be extended, from the discretionary assistance fund, in these circumstances, from October through to the end of March, ensuring support throughout the whole of the winter, and we'll continue the flexibilities that we've built into the discretionary assistance fund during the pandemic to provide financial support to people who will soon be facing even greater pressures as a result of the changes being made by the UK Conservative Government.
Dirprwy Lywydd, when there is so much opposition to the £20 cut—and there may be some on our benches here—from devolved Governments, from charities, from over 50 Tory MPs, including six former Department for Work and Pensions Secretaries of State, it is indefensible and frankly deplorable that the Conservatives are refusing to listen and to stand by those who need them the most. Austerity is clearly and firmly back for the poorest and lowest paid, but I thank colleagues again for this motion, for allowing us to jointly call on the UK Conservative Government to step back from this brink and do what is simply the right thing.

I call on Luke Fletcher to reply to the debate.

Luke Fletcher AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'd like to thank Members and the Minister, of course, for a reply and the contributions to today's debate. I might not have agreed with them all, but thank you nonetheless.
Dirprwy Lywydd, this debate couldn’t be more timely. This morning, on the bus in, there was a BBC news headline: ‘Price rises see record jump as food costs soar in August.’ The biggest increase in inflation since records began in 1997, yet we hear nothing, nothing from the Tory Government: no u-turn on the scrapping of the £20 uplift to universal credit, nothing on what measures it will take to protect the most vulnerable in society or the largest reduction to any social security payment since the 1930s. Instead, we've got the work and pensions Secretary backing the cut to universal credit saying that it would only mean two hours of extra work. If only it was that simple. 'Shameful’ is probably the word that's most appropriate that comes to my mind. I'm sure the Dirprwy Lywydd wouldn't want or even take kindly to the words I used when I initially heard the comments, so I'm minded not to repeat them.
Now, we know that the reduction in universal credit and working tax credits will have implications for the Welsh economy. The Bevan Foundation have estimated that the cut will directly remove £286 million from the pockets of low-income families in Wales annually. We hear about the emphasis on economic recovery. Well, it will no doubt be hindered by the decisions taken by the UK Tory Government, who would rather punish the working class and help their rich butties. As Delyth Jewell has already asked us: what is £20? That's money that could have gone on essentials—money that would have been spent in our economy, money that could have gone on the occasional treat.
Sioned Williams rightly pointed out the effect that the cut to universal credit would have on working families.As she has already highlighted, the TUC tells us that a third of families affected in Wales will be working families, and that's families in each and every one of our constituencies and regions. This is about dignity and respect for our fellow citizens, and on this point of dignity and respect, with the evidence—and, of course, evidence collected over the course of almost a decade, by the way—against universal credit, I find it hard to believe that the Welsh Conservatives still defend it. Case after case after case where families are stuck in a vicious cycle of poverty. And I've sat here, as well, through this entire debate, and all I've been hearing are Conservative Members on the benches laughing. Laughing. You should be utterly ashamed. [Interruption.] No, I will not be taking an intervention, thank you. No, I will not take an intervention. [Interruption.] I will not take an intervention. You have been laughing all the way through this debate.
Come with me; come with me to my region. And I'm sure Sarah Murphy as well—we both represent the same area. We'll take you to some of those families who have been affected by the Tory Government, and we'll see what they think about the fact that you laugh on your benches. You should be utterly ashamed—

Can we hear the Member speak?

Luke Fletcher AS: —of yourself. Utterly ashamed of yourself. [Interruption.] Utterly, utterly ashamed of yourself. You have no purchase in this argument whatsoever.
So, what needs to happen? Well we've outlined in clear terms in our motion, and we've elaborated in great detail, what the Welsh Government needs to do. A socialist Government would pursue the devolution of welfare as a matter of urgency to tackle poverty in Wales. And I'm sure the Minister and Labour Members would forgive me when I say that I don't always see eye to eye with them, but I would like to think that their Government would be far more compassionate than the one we have in Westminster at the moment, not that the bar has been set particularly high, mind you. The Government must publish a robust and meaningful plan to tackle poverty that contains clear performance targets to measure progress, and it must mitigate the worst effects of the cut to universal credit by maintaining flexibility around the discretionary assistance fund while employing other measures, such as extending free school meals eligibility.
Like my friend Sioned Williams, I too have only been a Member of the Senedd for four months, and I've heard enough about reviews to last me a lifetime. People need help now. The time to act is now. What is the point of this place and what is the point of us if we cannot protect the people of Wales? What is the point of this place if we cannot give the people of Wales the help that they need when they need it the most?
I ask Members one thing when they come to vote on this motion: think long and hard. Think long and hard about the hardships that face working families in Wales today. Think long and hard about the consequences of your vote. Think long and hard about what help you would need if you ever found yourselves in their positions.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. I will defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

In accordance with Standing Order 12.18, I will suspend the meeting before proceeding to voting time.

Plenary was suspended at 17:23.

The Senedd reconvened at 17:32, with the Llywyddin the Chair.

7. Voting Time

That brings us to voting time, and the first vote this afternoon is on the Welsh Conservatives' debate on access to defibrillators. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 27, abstentions none, against 27. And therefore, I use my casting vote in the negative against the motion. So, the result of the vote is as follows: in favour 27, no abstentions, 28 against. The motion is therefore not agreed.

Item 5 - Welsh Conservatives Debate - Motion without amendment: For: 27, Against: 27, Abstain: 0
As there was an equality of votes, the Llywydd used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

And that brings us to a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. I will therefore close the vote. In favour of the amendment 42, no abstentions, 12 against. And therefore the amendment is agreed.

Item 5 - Amendment 1 - tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths: For: 42, Against: 12, Abstain: 0Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

And the next vote is on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM7771as amended:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes that only 1 in 10 people survive an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest.
2. Further notes that for every minute a patient does not have access to a defibrillator or cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR), their chances of survival drops by 10 per cent.
3. Recognises that a network of defibrillators will save lives.
4. Recognises the £2.5 million funding provided by Welsh Government to Save a Life Cymru to improve awareness and access to CPR and defibrillation.
5. Notes the Welsh Government commits to extending this support by £500k this year to further increase the number of defibrillators in community settings across Wales.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 43, 11 abstentions, none against. Therefore the motion is agreed.

Item 5 - Welsh Conservatives debate - Motion as amended: For: 43, Against: 0, Abstain: 11Motion as amended has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next vote is on the Plaid Cymru debate on universal credit. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 13, no abstentions, 40 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Item 6 - Plaid Cymru Debate - Motion without amendment: For: 13, Against: 41, Abstain: 0Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

And we'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 14, no abstentions, 40 against. Therefore the amendment falls.

Item 6 - Amendment 1 - Tabled in the name of Darren Millar: For: 14, Against: 40, Abstain: 0Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 2 in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 14, no abstentions, 40 against. The amendment therefore falls.

Item 6 - Amendment 2 - tabled in the name of Darren Millar: For: 14, Against: 40, Abstain: 0Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 3 is next, and if amendment 3 is agreed, amendments 4 and 5 will be deselected. I therefore call for a vote on amendment 3, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 27, 11 abstentions, and 16 against. And therefore, the amendment is agreed.

Item 6 - Amendment 3 - tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths: For: 27, Against: 16, Abstain: 11
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

Therefore amendments 4 and 5 are deselected.

Amendments 4 and 5 deselected.

We therefore call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM7772 as amended:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Opposes the UK Government's proposal to scrap the £20 uplift in universal credit, which has been a vital helpline for families in Wales during the pandemic.
2. Recognises that a higher proportion of families in Wales will be affected by the cut to universal credit than the UK average according to the Bevan Foundation.
3. Notes the income maximisation work done by the Welsh Government to support families on low incomes.
4. Urges the Welsh Government to:
a) continue to explore the case for the devolution of the administration of welfare; and
b) maintain the current flexibility around the discretionary assistance fund to mitigate the impact of any universal credit reduction and the ending of furlough on people in Wales.

The motion as amended. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour, 40, no abstentions, 14 against, and therefore, the motion as amended as agreed.

Item 6 - Plaid Cymru debate - Motion as amended: For: 40, Against: 14, Abstain: 0Motion as amended has been agreedClick to see vote results

And that concludes voting time.

8. Short Debate: We will remember them: Why we must protect Wales’s war memorials

But we do have one remaining item, the short debate, and today's short debate is to be presented by Paul Davies. Paul Davies.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Llywydd, and I've agreed that Peter Fox and James Evans may have a minute—

Sorry, Paul. If Members could leave quietly.

If Members can leave very quietly, that would be polite to do so.

So, start again. Paul Davies.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Llywydd, and I've agreed that Peter Fox and James Evans may have a minute of my time in this debate. Today's debate is particularly poignant as it's Battle of Britain Day and we honour the legacy of the brave aircrews who defended Britain against tyranny. Now, the campaign to protect war memorials across Wales has been one that I've been proud to lead for several years now, and whilst it gives me great pleasure to highlight this issue again, this will be the third time that I've held a debate on this subject, so I hope the Deputy Minister will understand that it's very frustrating to see that little action has been taken by successive Governments on this issue. Members may be aware that I've also submitted a legislative proposal to protect war memorials in Wales and if successful in that ballot, I do hope Members will support that legislation.
I want to reiterate from the outset that this campaign isn't party political, and politicians from all parties right across the UK have campaigned for war memorials to be better protected. They are an essential part of our cultural and social fabric, and it's important that we honour the sacrifices of our fallen heroes. I'm pleased to hear the Prime Minister himself confirm that the UK Government will be looking to bring forward legislation to protect war memorials, and I look forward to hearing more about that legislation when those details emerge.
In Scotland, Highlands and Islands Scottish Labour MSPs Rhoda Grant and David Stewart supported calls for greater war memorial protection. Scottish Green Party MSP Gillian Mackay has also spoken about the protection of war memorials recently after a war memorial in Motherwell was vandalised for a second time in just a matter of weeks. And here in Wales, Ministers have repeatedly committed to doing more to protect our war memorials.
It's crucial that future generations remember those who died for our freedoms and learn from previous wars so that they are never repeated again. Therefore, I truly urge the Deputy Minister to prioritise this issue and commit to doing all that can be done to protect and cultivate these memorials as they come under increasing threat.
Now according to the Welsh Government, there are around 5,000 war memorials in Wales and they come in all shapes and sizes, from parks and gardens to statues and cenotaphs. And we know that each war memorial is unique in its own way; in some cases, the names listed on a memorial may be the only record of that individual's sacrifice. They're also important focal points of our local communities that are cared for and supported. However, despite the good intentions and hard work of many, it remains the case that war memorials continue to be vulnerable to the weather and time, and even worse than that, some have been vandalised and desecrated.
Members may remember back in February when a war memorial in Rhyl was vandalised with swastikas and antisemitic graffiti. That vandalism showed the utmost contempt for those that gave their lives for our freedoms and it's in that vein that I hope the Welsh Government will today give the strongest commitment it can to protecting and safeguarding our memorials for the future. Back in 2012 and again in 2019 I put forward many of the same arguments that I will today to the Welsh Government. At the time, whilst each response to the debate was sincere and understanding, war memorials in Wales today are no more protected than they were back then.

Paul Davies AC: The first part of my legislative proposal is for the Welsh Government, via local authorities, to undertake a nationwide, up-to-date inventory of war memorials in Wales. I know that some work has been done by Cadw on this front via the Cymru'n Cofio Wales Remembers programme, but it's so important that up-to-date data is recorded and regularly monitored to confirm the number and locations of war memorials in Wales. I believe that this could be best done via local authorities, who should be better placed to identify and draw up a list of the war memorials in each of their areas. As I've said in previous debates, there will be occasions where some memorials may be on private land or, for example, located at a school or church, and as such, the responsibility for maintaining those memorials would lie with the owner of that land. However, key to protecting Wales's war memorials is knowing exactly where they are and what condition they are in.
Secondly, the Deputy Minister will not be surprised to hear that I believe there should be a statutory duty on local authorities to protect war memorials in their own areas, which would mean that there is a legal duty to ensure that war memorials in their areas are maintained. I've long called for legislation to place a statutory duty on local authorities to protect war memorials in their areas, and whilst the Welsh Government continues to consider the idea, no strong commitment to legislation has yet been given. Of course, we know that theWar Memorials (Local Authorities' Powers) Act 1923 permits local authorities to use public money for the maintenance of memorials, but councils are under no obligation to do so. Placing a statutory duty on local authorities would ensure that every public war memorial is safeguarded and preserved. This would involve ensuring that each local authority had a specific custodian whose job it would be to identify and preserve war memorials in their areas. In this capacity, that individual would work closely with community groups and organisations to gather as much information as possible about the memorials and the people whose names are on them. Sadly, in many local authorities there isn't a point of contact for people to find out more about the memorials in the area, and that is something that I believe really needs to change.
To my mind, it's only through collaboration between the Welsh Government, local authorities and local communities that we can ensure that war memorials are being protected properly. Some war memorials may be of special architectural or historic interest, and could also be representative of a particular type of work, and so often local communities are able to tell you facts about memorials that aren't always public knowledge. Therefore it's vital that there is a genuine partnership between local authorities and community groups so that local culture and history can be fully explored and appreciated for the future. Of course, some community groups already do a fantastic job of protecting war memorials, and they should be encouraged to continue to do so. However, the support of someone within the local authority would help strengthen the work already done by many community groups and offer them practical advice and assistance on everything from historical tracking to maintenance and conservation.
As I've said in previous debates, there's also an opportunity for this role to include some outreach educational work, for example, by visiting schools and talking to children and young people. This is so important in educating our children and young people about previous conflicts and the sacrifices made by people in their local community. I seriously believe that the creation of this role would send a strong message that the Welsh Government is doing what it can to honour its heroes and preserve its military heritage. At the same time, it also shows the Welsh Government is committed to ensuring that our future generations never forget the sacrifices that were made by so many for our freedoms.Appointing a conservation custodian or a war memorial officer in communities would be the best way to establish a point of contact for the public, develop partnerships with local community groups, and build stronger community links with schools to educate children and young people about the importance of war memorials and to tell the stories of our fallen heroes.
I'm sure the Deputy Minister will agree that the maintenance and preservation of war memorials is no easy feat. Each memorial is different and, as such, it should be repaired and preserved in response to its individual needs. Many memorials will require professional specialist advice to correctly assess the memorial's condition and establish the right way to repair or preserve the memorial, and that costs money. A conservation custodian or war memorial officer could support community groups in their bid to attract grant funding for particular projects, and make the case to a council for them to intervene and support a project.
Finally, I believe it's crucial that the Welsh Government works with local authorities to ascertain where our war memorials are located and under whose stewardship. It's so important that the Welsh Government ensures that councils have adequate support and funding to address incidents of vandalism, and to also combat those who target war memorials for scrap metal. I cannot make it any clearer: these are not victimless crimes at all. They are crimes against society, and we should leave no stone unturned in identifying ways to stop those who attempt to remove war memorials.
The Deputy Minister will, of course, be aware of the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 2013, which was brought in to strengthen the regulations around scrap metal dealers, and to tighten up the current regime. That legislation, which was brought in in 2013, means that all individuals and businesses must complete a rigorous application process to obtain a scrap metal dealer licence, and also gives local authorities the power to reject unsuitable applicants and revoke licences. It's really a positive step forward, but there's always more that can be done.
I'm also campaigning for the Welsh Government to provide local authorities with the state-of-the-art SmartWater signature. SmartWater is a crime prevention fluid that makes war memorials uniquely identifiable, and offers robust traceability should a theft occur. It's only visible under ultraviolet light, which can help police to trace stolen memorials, and, once applied, it's virtually impossible to remove, withstanding burning, sand blasting and long-term exposure to ultraviolet light. This is one way of protecting war memorials, and I hope the Welsh Government would agree to developing a wider partnership with the SmartWater Foundation and, indeed, the War Memorials Trust to use this powerful deterrent and ensure our local authorities have access to it.
That's not to say that some work hasn't been done to protect memorials in Wales, and I'm very grateful to those at Cadw who've worked with local communities and individuals to create conservation maintenance plans. However, the reality is that there are many war memorials without custodians, and those memorials deserve our time and respect too. And so, above all else today, I sincerely hope the Deputy Minister will confirm that she will review the legislation around the protection of war memorials, and work with stakeholders like the War Memorials Trust and Cadw to tighten up that legislation and bring it into the twenty-first century.
Llywydd, in closing I sincerely hope the Welsh Government will give these proposals the time and attention that they deserve, and I'd be happy to work with any Member in this Chamber to better protect Wales's war memorials. This debate is titled 'We will remember them', and protecting and preserving war memorials is one way to honour our fallen heroes. And it's more than that. It's also about creating opportunities for our children and young people to learn more about them, and the ultimate price they paid for our freedom. Therefore, I do call on the Welsh Government to prioritise the protection of our military heritage in this Parliament, and commit to doing more to protect war memorials here in Wales. Thank you.

Peter Fox AS: I'm really pleased to have the opportunity to take part in this debate, and I extend my sincere thanks to Paul Davies for giving me the time. I know Paul is very passionate about this, as many of us are. It's an important issue, one that transcends all party lines. We must never forget those people who have served and given the ultimate sacrifice for us. War memorials play a central role in our society and remind us of the immense role Britain has played in protecting our freedoms and liberty that we enjoy to this day. But for too long, many of our war memorials have suffered dereliction and vandalism, as Paul pointed out, and this is just totally unacceptable. Ensuring a statutory duty for their protection, which would include the appointing of a war memorial officer, is something every Member of the Senedd should get behind and back. I will join my colleagues here today and call on the Welsh Government Ministers to heed our calls. It is so important that we never forget those people who've served so bravely for us. Thank you, Llywydd.

James Evans MS: I'd like to pay tribute and thanks to my colleague Paul Davies, for allowing me to take part in this important debate. I pay tribute to the work and dedication that you have taken to enhance and protect our war memorials and our fallen heroes.
Protection of our war memorials must not be overlooked by the Welsh Government or any Government, and I support calls for a cross-party consensus on ensuring our war memorials receive statutory recognition and protection in law. Memorials across Brecon and Radnorshire serve as a poignant reminder to the ultimate sacrifice made by those brave servicemen and women who gave their lives for our freedoms, so we can come here to represent our communities and our democracy.
Our fallen heroes must not be forgotten, and those who choose to deface and dishonour our war memorials must face the full force of the law. The Welsh Government must ensure specific funding is made available to local authorities so they can adequately maintain our war memorials and repair those memorials if they are vandalised, as we must remember and honour our past if we are ever going to change the future. Therefore, I join calls for the Welsh Government to prioritise the protection of our war memorials and commit to doing more in the term of this Parliament. Thank you very much. Diolch.

I now call on the Deputy Minister for arts and sport to reply to the debate. Dawn Bowden.

Dawn Bowden AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I'm certainly very grateful to Paul Davies for instigating this debate today about the importance of protecting our memorials. I know he's raised this matter in the Senedd on several occasions and feels passionately about it, and I agree that Wales's memorials are important parts of our heritage. I don't think there's anyone who can deny the emotional power of these monuments, and their importance both to local communities and in the bigger picture of our national history.
A few weeks ago, I visited Llangollen Railway, and while I was there I had a very poignant experience. In the underpass at Berwyn station, I saw handwritten graffiti on the walls, left there by soldiers departing for the front in world war one. Some never came back, and their names are listed on the war memorial in the town. But seeing those messages and signatures is a powerful reminder of the terrible sacrifices that were made—sacrifices so great that we must never forget. All war is terrible, but there is something particularly horrific about the carnage of the first world war, where 35,000 Welsh men were killed. That drives home to us the need to remember.
Between 2014 and 2019, the Cymru'n Cofio Wales Remembers initiative provided an opportunity for us to work with organisations and individuals, throughout Wales and internationally, to commemorate and reflect on the impact of war. Through that initiative, the Welsh Government and its partners supported a great number of activities, commemorative events, cultural and educational programmes, as well as conservation of war memorials and other historic sites associated with the war. Projects included the renovation of Yr Ysgwrn, the home of Hedd Wyn, where £2.8 million of National Lottery money has created a cultural centre that will ensure an enduring public awareness of the significance of the war. We also supported the creation of new war memorials: the Welsh memorial park at Langemark, and, in November 2019, a new memorial unveiled in Alexandra Gardens here in Cardiff, near to our national memorial, to recognise the outstanding contribution of men and women from diverse ethnic and commonwealth communities. Partnership working was the key to the success of Cymru'n Cofio Wales Remembers, and, in my view, it should remain at the heart of how we work going forward. I'm grateful to all of those who engaged in the initiative and continue to do such important work on our behalf to keep alive the memory of the sacrifices of those who fought for us.
The Welsh Government has always acknowledged the importance of war memorials as visible and poignant pieces of heritage, and focal points for commemoration for communities and families. They are both a physical record of those who died for their country and a visual reminder of the impact of war. Many war memorials are also important to our architectural and artistic heritage. After the first world war, the raising of so many new memorials across the United Kingdom was, in effect, a unique public art project, which helped local communities experiencing a heartbreaking mix of emotions from sorrow to relief at the victory. The impact of war has been so widespread that it has resulted in an extraordinary number of commemorative war memorials—over 90,000 across the United Kingdom and over 3,700 here in Wales, ranging from town memorials designed by leading artists to small village plaques.

Dawn Bowden AC: The Imperial War Museum maintains a register of war memorials and the Welsh Government has provided financial support to the War Memorials Trust to make information about those memorials more accessible to the public through War Memorials Online. This includes thousands of records and provides a platform for members of the public to get involved by contributing their own photographs and details of memorials. Other sources of information include Cadw's online database Cof Cymru, which details over 230 listed memorials, and the statutory historic environment records maintained by the four Welsh archaeological trusts. Besides war memorials, of course, these also include information on hundreds of historic buildings and structures associated with the defence of Britain and life on the home front, including anti-invasion defences, air fields, hospitals and munitions factories, which have all been investigated by the archaeological trusts with funding from Cadw over the past 10 years.
Now, as Paul Davies said, the range of war memorials in Wales is remarkable, from commemorative statues, obelisks and plaques to windows, gardens, community halls, hospitals, chapels and bridges. The range of ownership is similarly diverse, but these are all important community assets. Often, they're paid for by subscriptions with personal ties to families and individuals. While there are some that have fallen into disrepair, we shouldn't overlook the success of so many community initiatives that continue to care for these memorials.The Welsh Government provides help with this. The guidance document, 'Caring for War Memorials in Wales', produced by Cadw in association with the War Memorials Trust, provides guidance specifically aimed at helping communities to care for their war memorials. It includes practical advice for conservation and repair and is beautifully illustrated with photographs of monuments from across Wales, and examples of successful conservation projects. I encourage all Members to read it. It can be downloaded free through the Cadw website.
The Welsh Government has also given generous financial support to protect war memorials from decay. Cadw provides grants to help conserve historic monuments and, in recent years, has included nearly £240,000 for repairs to war memorials. Under the war memorial grant scheme, it gave out funds to 45 projects in communities throughout Wales. Cadw will shortly be announcing a new community heritage grant scheme that will offer grants of up to £15,000 to support the maintenance and repair of community assets, and listed war memorials will be eligible to apply for support. Now, I know that Cadw is always keen to support historic assets across Wales that have particular significance to their communities, and the last thing we want to see is important historic structures and buildings being lost, especially those with such meaning to local people.
The National Lottery heritage fund has also been extremely generous in its support for projects. As well as providing the £2.8 million to funding the restoration of Yr Ysgwrn, as I mentioned earlier, it provided over £1 million of grant aid to 126 community-led commemorative projects reflecting the heritage of conflict. And it's currently working with Cadw to deliver a new 15-minute heritage grant scheme that encourages community engagement with local heritage.
But as well as funding activities within Wales, we have also funded memorials in France and Belgium, and I'm proud that we supported the refurbishment of the memorial to the 38th (Welsh) Division at Mametz Wood, which was one of the focal points for the Cymru'n Cofio Wales Remembers national commemoration service, which the First Minister attended in 2016. We've also funded the national monument at Pilkem Ridge in Langemark in Belgium.I think it's important to acknowledge that while war memorials in towns and villages across Wales are there for local communities, memorials actually at the battle sites provide another important focus for commemoration in the places where so many lives were lost.
A concern that I'm sure we all share—and I know that Paul has touched on this, as have other speakers this evening—is the criminal damage such as vandalism that affects those memorials. Sadly relevant to our debate today is the shocking recent news of the defacement of the memorial dedicated to the poet Hedd Wyn that stands in the centre of Trawsfynydd. I join with the local community in condemning this despicable act of disregard for a memorial that represents all the men from Trawsfynydd who lost their lives in the first world war. I'm sure that we all hope that the police will soon be able to identify and bring those perpetrators to justice.
Sadly, I also have experience of an example of vandalism that took place in my own constituency not so long ago. There is a beautiful memorial in Troedyrhiw park in Merthyr Tydfil in the form of a statue of a serviceman. A couple of years ago, the soldier's rifle, which was actually made of marble, not metal, was stolen. The monument had been paid for by public subscription, and this act of vandalism not only disrespects the memories of 73 local men whose names are listed on it and who died in the first and second world wars, but it also disrespects the local people who gave their hard-earned money to build that memorial in the first place. I'm pleased to say that work is now under way to replace and repair it, with support from the War Memorials Trust.
The actions of a minority of vandals do not represent the views of the majority and must not be tolerated. The police already have powers to tackle vandalism, and perpetrators can be prosecuted under the offence of criminal damage, which can carry a hefty prison sentence. Heritage crime is something that is being taken very seriously in Wales, and Cadw is working closely with local police forces to investigate and prevent this type of crime, to encourage the use of deterrents such as SmartWater, which Paul referred to, to protect memorials at risk of theft. I understand that anyone responsible for a war memorial can apply to the SmartWater Foundation for the use of this product for free.
Of course, local authorities do play an important role in caring for war memorials, specifically those that have been given statutory protection, and also have powers under current legislation to undertake works to repair monuments. Many have carried out initiatives to support community engagement with memorials. So, I don't believe that it is necessary to use additional legislation to push them into action, but instead prefer to engage in the spirit of co-operative partnership.
The importance of war memorials is widely accepted, and local authorities all over Wales are already carrying out important repair work. I do, however, recognise that there is always room for improvement, and I fully support the calls for local authorities to remain proactive in their support for war memorials, and to ensure that they seek opportunities to support communities to engage at all levels. This can be facilitated by individual officers within local authorities working to encourage partnerships, and also by encouraging the uptake of the many resources in this area, such as the bilingual education packages that have been produced to support primary and secondary schools on Hwb.
Commemoration remains as important today as it did when our memorials were first built, so I thank Paul Davies once again for raising this subject today and recognising the role that memorials play in the lives of our communities today and will play in the future. Thank you.

Thank you to the Deputy Minister, and that brings today's proceedings to a close. Thank you very much, and good afternoon, everyone.

The meeting ended at 18:07.

QNR

Questions to the Minister for Finance and Local Government

Hefin David: Will the Minister make a statement about local government boundary reforms?

Rebecca Evans: Decisions have been made in respect of 12 of the 22 reviews, and the Orders required to implement these decisions are currently being finalised. I will be making further decisions in the coming weeks.

Mark Isherwood: How does the Welsh Government ensure the accountability of local government officers to elected councillors?

Rebecca Evans: Each principal council is required to have a constitution which sets out how decisions are made and the procedures to be followed, including the circumstances where officers are able to make decisions. Failure to comply with standing orders is an internal disciplinary matter.

James Evans: Will the Minister make a statement on future funding being provided to Powys County Council?

Rebecca Evans: I regularly discuss finance matters, including the settlement, with local government through the partnership council and its finance sub group. More information on council funding for future years will be made available when we published the draft Welsh budget in December.

Rhys ab Owen: What discussions has the Welsh Government had on improving electoral arrangements to make it easier for people to participate in local government elections?

Rebecca Evans: Rwyf yn cael trafodaethau rheolaidd gydag ystod o sefydliadau ac unigolion am drefniadau etholiadol. Mae’r gwaith hwn yn cynnwys adolygu’r lefelau o aelodau etholedig ledled Cymru, trefniadau pleidleisio, ffyrdd o gefnogi ymgeiswyr i sefyll mewn etholiad, a meithrin mwy o ddealltwriaeth o wleidyddiaeth a dinasyddiaeth o oedran cynnar.

Questions to the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd

Sarah Murphy: How is the Welsh Government supporting innovation in the farming industry in South Wales West?

Lesley Griffiths: The Welsh Government continues to support farm businesses across the whole of Wales, including South Wales West , to improve their technical, financial and environmental performance. The introduction of new technology and innovation is central to the support we offer though our Farming Connect knowledge transfer programme and capital support schemes.

John Griffiths: What action is the Welsh Government taking to mitigate agricultural pollution in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths: Pollution of any kind impacts on us all and we must tackle it for the benefit of our environment and communities. Sustainable farm businesses do not pollute the environment and we are mitigating agricultural pollution through partnership working, knowledge transfer services, good practice guidance, regulation, enforcement and financial support.

Russell George: What discussions has the Minister had with the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Wellbeing about the impact of Welsh Government policies on farmers' mental health?

Lesley Griffiths: I regularly discuss the well-being and mental health of farmers with the Deputy Minister.
I met this week to discuss the Deputy Minister’s recent visit to the DPJ Foundation and the charity’s work, including on combatting the stigma sometimes associated with mental health matters and the well-being issues being raised by farmers.